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  1. #801
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    Ni is about how to make an understanding of the principle to different level

  2. #802
    darkened dreams Ravenetta's Avatar
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    It could be interesting to hear more examples of Ni - even if the process can't be explained, it would be interesting to hear what happens before and after the dark abyss of Ni.

    I get a lot of imaginative impressions that I'll reign in with reason, but I'm curious how to define them.

    I'll get impressions of past lives, like I remember being a little person in a circus who used a crystal ball, had helper monkeys, and admired the acrobats knowing I could never perform those stunts. Is it a metaphor for my childhood? A metaphor for my personality? Real? Am I nuts? I consider it all possible.

    I also remember being a harpist in the early 1900s, being fairly affluent and in a romantic relationship with a racecar driver.

    Once I was looking up at the sky relaxing at a cabin with a friend when suddenly I had this impression like a shock that someone from the future was looking back at me. I know its crazy, but what the hell is that? Why would such an idea even happen? Just random-imagination-happenstance? A metaphor for something internal? That's my best conclusion.

    Sometimes when sitting in public like a restaurant, and letting my mind lose focus, I start to see the entire emotional range of people who walk by. I see their facial expression and body movement for when they are angry, joyful, sad, etc. I get strong impressions that they are passive-aggressive, or act out, etc. Of course there is no way to verify it, so what do I conclude?

    I've spent my life on a crusade to think clearly and so surrounded myself with the most logical people I could find. I've put a lot of effort into thinking logically over the years, but have found some limitations in that. For all my crazy impressions (which sometimes are more concrete and useful regarding people), I tend to be okay not knowing what they mean.

    Does Ni require certitude? It that in its nature like Jung mentions, although I don't know if he meant it is the case persistently or not. Sometimes I'm struck with certainty, but more often I enjoy the wash of the ocean of speculation carrying me on its waves. The impressions tend to be internal, but open-ended. Do you (anyone reading) think this sounds more like Ni or Ne?

  3. #803
    Senior Member IndigoViolet11's Avatar
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    About Ni...

    It is as if I take something intuitively, like thoughts or feeling. There is some kind of supportive bridge that runs between my own thought, of how things link together both internally and externally, as if everything is a drop of water, part of the whole, being drawn into smaller circles, in a pool of bigger circles, and even bigger circles.

    This means that it works more like our subconcious rather than some conscious thoughts, but amazingly, when the concept is put into paper, been drawn, explained, by that and only that they flow out. This can be, in my opinion, is due to our serious lack of knowledge of how intuition works and what it really is, and lack of visible words or medium in explaining it. This problem presists even in those who uses Ni extensively, for the lack of proper medium to reflect it out to ourselves. It's possibly a psychic ability that is innate to intuitive dominants, or it isn't. But no matter which way, I think there is always a reason, though, why we think and feel a certain way in result of our inner processing. All we need to know is the real reason behind a certain intuitive thought.
    MBTI: ~ INFJ / INTP (My mate pointed out something about INTP and INFJ.)
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  4. #804
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    I've submitted several posts to this thread, explaining what Ni is. The enduring confusion makes me feel like it's trying to explain quantum mechanics.

    Ni is simple, but people try to make it mysterious because it doesn't fit in their view of how functions work, or because they've read too much about how Ni "taps into the unconscious" (which is just a way of saying, "it's a mystery").

    Both Ne and Ni as part of one's type mean that one thinks in terms of patterns instead of concrete things and experiences (which would be Se and Si). ("Patterns" is a more down-to-earth way of saying "abstract thinking".) So where Se seeks out new experiences and Si remembers/savors experiences, Ne seeks out new patterns while Ni remembers/savors patterns. That's it. It is no more complicated than that. Any further explanation is window-dressing, and not typology, per se.

    It's this "remembering of patterns" that can be interpreted as "tapping into the unconscious". Well, it sort of is, because remembering concrete things and experiences things is a largely unconscious process: you either remember or you don't, it just happens, you "just know". Same thing for remembering patterns. You either remember or you don't. It just happens. You "just know". So Ni "just knows", because Ni types think in terms of patterns and remember patterns and apply patterns on the fly. When an Si type can remember something and informs others of those memories or their implication, no one wonders, "How did he know that?!?!" No one is mystified by someone remembering concrete facts/details/experiences. When an Ni type remembers patterns, and informs others of their implications, there are no words to describe the patterns*. Because the Ni type is just stating conclusions, e.g., "we need to do Y instead of X", the reasoning is along the lines of "because X won't work", and not "Remember last time we did X? It didn't work." So people wonder why X won't work, and often times the Ni type can't explain why, because they remember the pattern, that "this pattern of things doesn't work, or usually doesn't work". Worse, in the Ni type's head, one isn't even calling them "patterns", but just "intuitively" realizing that X won't work (due to the remembered patterns), but it takes a lot of effort to turn that understanding into a concrete explanation. That dynamic is what makes Ni seem mysterious, even though it really isn't.

    *Without words, without a common language to convey the patterns, it seems very mysterious. In some professions, however, there ARE WORDS to describe the patterns. Engineering and computer science have jargon that describes "design patterns", while in physics, the laws of physics are the "design patterns". In these fields, you CAN actually say why you think X won't work and Y will. For these reasons, it can be easy to mix up Ni and Si types in engineering, because they have language and words to talk about abstract things clearly and definitively.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  5. #805
    Senior Member Pluvio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Both Ne and Ni as part of one's type mean that one thinks in terms of patterns instead of concrete things and experiences (which would be Se and Si). ("Patterns" is a more down-to-earth way of saying "abstract thinking".) So where Se seeks out new experiences and Si remembers/savors experiences, Ne seeks out new patterns while Ni remembers/savors patterns. That's it. It is no more complicated than that. Any further explanation is window-dressing, and not typology, per se.
    Perfectly stated.
    Thread's over. Everybody, go home.

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  6. #806
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theforsaken View Post
    Perfectly stated.
    Thread's over. Everybody, go home.

    No.
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  7. #807
    © So Much Deeper™ Forever's Avatar
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    Ni, what the hell is it?

    Thread restart
    No time is ever wasted.
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  8. #808
    Dream without Hesitation Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theforsaken View Post
    Perfectly stated.
    Thread's over. Everybody, go home.

    That really, all there is to Ne/Ni is seeing the meaning/patterns beneath the surface and seeing the relationships between things. I think people are trying to make it much more complicated sounding than it has to be.
    The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams
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    ~Always, an Enthusiastic_Dreamer
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  9. #809
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I've submitted several posts to this thread, explaining what Ni is. The enduring confusion makes me feel like it's trying to explain quantum mechanics.

    Ni is simple, but people try to make it mysterious because it doesn't fit in their view of how functions work, or because they've read too much about how Ni "taps into the unconscious" (which is just a way of saying, "it's a mystery").

    Both Ne and Ni as part of one's type mean that one thinks in terms of patterns instead of concrete things and experiences (which would be Se and Si). ("Patterns" is a more down-to-earth way of saying "abstract thinking".) So where Se seeks out new experiences and Si remembers/savors experiences, Ne seeks out new patterns while Ni remembers/savors patterns. That's it. It is no more complicated than that. Any further explanation is window-dressing, and not typology, per se.

    It's this "remembering of patterns" that can be interpreted as "tapping into the unconscious". Well, it sort of is, because remembering concrete things and experiences things is a largely unconscious process: you either remember or you don't, it just happens, you "just know". Same thing for remembering patterns. You either remember or you don't. It just happens. You "just know". So Ni "just knows", because Ni types think in terms of patterns and remember patterns and apply patterns on the fly. When an Si type can remember something and informs others of those memories or their implication, no one wonders, "How did he know that?!?!" No one is mystified by someone remembering concrete facts/details/experiences. When an Ni type remembers patterns, and informs others of their implications, there are no words to describe the patterns*. Because the Ni type is just stating conclusions, e.g., "we need to do Y instead of X", the reasoning is along the lines of "because X won't work", and not "Remember last time we did X? It didn't work." So people wonder why X won't work, and often times the Ni type can't explain why, because they remember the pattern, that "this pattern of things doesn't work, or usually doesn't work". Worse, in the Ni type's head, one isn't even calling them "patterns", but just "intuitively" realizing that X won't work (due to the remembered patterns), but it takes a lot of effort to turn that understanding into a concrete explanation. That dynamic is what makes Ni seem mysterious, even though it really isn't.

    *Without words, without a common language to convey the patterns, it seems very mysterious. In some professions, however, there ARE WORDS to describe the patterns. Engineering and computer science have jargon that describes "design patterns", while in physics, the laws of physics are the "design patterns". In these fields, you CAN actually say why you think X won't work and Y will. For these reasons, it can be easy to mix up Ni and Si types in engineering, because they have language and words to talk about abstract things clearly and definitively.
    This is really good! It's so hard to get Ni types to explain Ni in a simple way, and this almost simultaneously explains why they can't explain it .

    I think what confuses people is sensing types (especially SFs) also report instinctive impressions, and they may think this is intuition because they may see them as patterns in experience. But what I notice is they almost always explain these by recalling concrete data (ie when SFs sense things about people, they really sense these things. They recall body language or something else they picked up with their senses & they compare it to impressions of other things they have sensed before and collective meanings (Si+ Fe) or they experience it in the immediate context along with an inner experience which informs them of the general human condition (Se + Fi).... The emotional aspect of Feeling and Sensing creates a system of experience and interpretation that can feel like "just knowing". I agree that the big tip-off of an N type is the difficulty in referencing concrete experience to back stuff up. Because we were focused on the "pattern", any concrete data is hard to recall (can't remember what you didn't study).
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  10. #810
    © So Much Deeper™ Forever's Avatar
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    But I've been talking about simply pattern recognition months ago.
    No time is ever wasted.

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