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  1. #621
    A wannabe dog
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    Once upon a time, there is a murder case that nobody is able to resolve.

    Then came along this great detective who is an Ni dom. He went to the crime scene, looked around the house for evidences, and then he came across this book that has a red strand of hair in it.

    He immediately started saying, "I know who the murderer is."

    "Who???!" Everybody started asking out of curiosity.

    "His brother, Sam, is the murderer," he replied.

    "How did you know?"

    "Because I was walking pass the victim's bedroom earlier and I saw this family portrait with Sam in it, and his hair was red inside that family portrait. He is the only one with red hair in the family. And I actually found his red hair in the diary book of the victim. And then I looked at the handwriting of the "suicidal entry" in the diary book, and I compared that handwriting with other handwriting in that diary book, and I realized that it's a different handwriting, it's written by 2 different people. Then I went into Sam's bedroom and I found one of his literature poem that he wrote during his high school days. I compared the handwriting of that poem with the handwriting of that "suicidal entry" in the victim's diary, and I realized it's the exact same handwriting. Somehow, I managed to connect all the dots together and therefore, conclude that Sam is the murderer."

  2. #622
    darkened dreams Ravenetta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I've read Bagan's book and he was the same way until he "came face-to-face" with a ghost. Until that time he didn't think about ghosts. I've read his personal ghost story and what would make it more convincing is the fact that these strange events went on for a week before they finally came face-to-face with each other. The same goes for the person who felt an invisible presence in her car.

    So while I'm not negating anything you say at all, there is a difference between those who are convinced and those who are unconvinced.
    The person you describe may have certitude about reality based on feeling and experience over definable fact.

    I have found in many discussion there can be a disconnect if someone has a strong judging preference that assumes there are two reactions to information
    1. embrace it as fact
    2. dismiss it as false.
    There is a third option that is the home of pure Perception and that is to
    3. observe and wonder w/o conclusion

    I've had some rather strange experiences and "saw" various ghosts while living in one particular apartment, but interestingly enough, it didn't make me believe in ghosts. It helped that one apparition was of my current boyfriend who lived down the street, so I researched and found information on hypnopompic hallucinations that occur at the edge of sleep. I've also had a strong "feeling" that recently deceased people are present or viewing the world through my eyes, but I don't draw a conclusion about it. The most significant experience was when my former partner's dog died, I have a vivid feeling for the next three days that he was viewing the world through my eyes. Every detail and impression lined up with how I would expect the dog to see the world, even feeling fatigue over language use in thought. I live without conclusion about it. The most probable explanation based on everything in my internal framework is that it is a powerful psychological phenomenon for dealing with loss. Because the experience was so vivd and it felt like I learned new information through it, there is a part of me that goes back to those concepts from physicists that "time is an illusion" or from the Buddhists that "separateness is an illusion" that makes me wonder if when our perceptions fall outside of our assumptions about concrete space and linear time, that it could be possible that we are viewing that more fundamental aspect of reality in which everything exists as a singularity of space and time. I don't think that is fact, but I remember the experiences as providing information about reality, whether it is merely a neurological phenomenon or that much of our perceived reality is an illusion.
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  3. #623
    FREEEEEEEEEEEEEE Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    The person you describe may have certitude about reality based on feeling and experience over definable fact.

    I have found in many discussion there can be a disconnect if someone has a strong judging preference that assumes there are two reactions to information
    1. embrace it as fact
    2. dismiss it as false.
    There is a third option that is the home of pure Perception and that is to
    3. observe and wonder w/o conclusion

    I've had some rather strange experiences and "saw" various ghosts while living in one particular apartment, but interestingly enough, it didn't make me believe in ghosts. It helped that one apparition was of my current boyfriend who lived down the street, so I researched and found information on hypnopompic hallucinations that occur at the edge of sleep. I've also had a strong "feeling" that recently deceased people are present or viewing the world through my eyes, but I don't draw a conclusion about it. The most significant experience was when my former partner's dog died, I have a vivid feeling for the next three days that he was viewing the world through my eyes. Every detail and impression lined up with how I would expect the dog to see the world, even feeling fatigue over language use in thought. I live without conclusion about it. The most probable explanation based on everything in my internal framework is that it is a powerful psychological phenomenon for dealing with loss. Because the experience was so vivd and it felt like I learned new information through it, there is a part of me that goes back to those concepts from physicists that "time is an illusion" or from the Buddhists that "separateness is an illusion" that makes me wonder if when our perceptions fall outside of our assumptions about concrete space and linear time, that it could be possible that we are viewing that more fundamental aspect of reality in which everything exists as a singularity of space and time. I don't think that is fact, but I remember the experiences as providing information about reality, whether it is merely a neurological phenomenon or that much of our perceived reality is an illusion.
    1. embrace it as fact
    2. dismiss it as false.
    There is a third option that is the home of pure Perception and that is to
    3. observe and wonder w/o conclusion

    I agree with that list. But what causes 1, 2, or 3 to occur? What drives that choice?

    There has to be a factor outside of function analysis. In Zak Bagans case, that would be the feeling of purposelessness he describers in his book. Chasing ghosts gives his life purpose.

    So as usual, I'm not disagreeing with you. I have nothing against pure perception or objective awareness which are the same as withholding judgment. "Hypnopompic" is a new term to me, although I'd heard of "hypnagogic" before. I've had hypnagogic experiences (which were predictions about fortune misfortune) and I've also had hypnopompic experiences.

    On a related side note, some of the ghost clips that I've seen on Ghost Adventures indicate that some spirits want people to be asleep before they try to influence them.

    I don't want this to stray far from the Ni topic, or else we will experience the misfortune of having our posts Graveyarded. But I would just like to add that even if multiple people experience the same physically inexplicable incident while being wide awake, most if not all scientists will dismiss it as a mass hallucination (option 2).
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson

    ''It's a classic McCarthyite tactic of the left to question the motives and good faith of those who disagree with them.'' Andrew Sullivan
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  4. #624
    FREEEEEEEEEEEEEE Mal12345's Avatar
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    I have an example of option 3 (observer and wonder without conclusion) -

    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson

    ''It's a classic McCarthyite tactic of the left to question the motives and good faith of those who disagree with them.'' Andrew Sullivan
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  5. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post

    Gregor Samsa

  6. #626
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I have an example of option 3 (observer and wonder without conclusion) -

    OMG this shit really scares me! wtf!
    @Destiny that story of the detective could easily be applied to an Ne-dom person too. I dont see what's so particularly Ni about it. In fact, most of the descriptions and examples I've read on this thread of Ni I think could easily be Ne (I see myself possibly doing them)
    @fia jesus! you are making me terrified with these stories of ghosts and blah. grrr please put a spoiler for me (im not kidding)

  7. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    @Destiny that story of the detective could easily be applied to an Ne-dom person too. I dont see what's so particularly Ni about it. In fact, most of the descriptions and examples I've read on this thread of Ni I think could easily be Ne (I see myself possibly doing them)
    It sounds like deductive reasoning, which I think is more Ne (external > objective > contextual). So I disagree with Destiny. Ni is more inductive (subjective) > Thinking about Mal's examples.

  8. #628
    darkened dreams Ravenetta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I have an example of option 3 (observer and wonder without conclusion) -

    Is this what happens when someone gets bitten by a radioactive beetle during mating season?
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  9. #629
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Ben Kovitz, who ran the old "Lenore Thomson wiki" (and is very influenced by her as I am) was discussing the functions on a list, and made this great explanation of Ni and its difference from Ne:

    "Intuition is guessing—or rather, orienting by what seems to you to be a good guess even though the facts aren't in. Why does it seem like such a good guess? Well, with Extraverted Intuition, you can point out the things [i.e. in the environment="e"] that suggest your guess so that other people start to see the possibility, too; with Introverted Intuition, you can't. WIth Extraverted Intuition, the guess keeps changing as new information is revealed [again, from the environment]: as parts of the big picture get filled in, your guess about the whole absorbs them and revises in unpredictable ways. You need a constant influx of new information to keep triggering you to revise your guesses. With Introverted Intuition, the guess might start "reply hazy, try later" and gradually clarify, but it's somewhat impervious to new information. You search within [individually="i"], ideas come, and you trust them. If information comes in that contradicts the guess, you just tune it out or call it an illusion.
    So the Introverted Intuitive attitude aims at getting ahead of all consciously accessible information—including, especially, direct experience."

    This seems to be the best explanation I've seen, especially regarding what really makes it "internal" or introverted. (It's often simply called "the unconscious", which he had also just used, but as I pointed out, "unconscious" has several uses, and so Jung and others' definitions with that term never "clicked" for me. I then figured it involved some sort of "impressions" that come up, like "hunches", and I didn't know whether these were just things that were "there" involuntarily, or not, but saying it's a "guess" that you deliberately look within to see what ideas come up, really clarifies it for me). It's the "trust" in these ideas that makes it an introverted attitude. With me, I keep looking on the outside (and this is actually stuff "stored in memory" as Lenore puts it, and this helps me, as "memory" is technically "inside", so it begged the question of the real difference with Ni's "internal" source and Ne's "memory". Ne is memory of externally based patterns (such as "contexts") you can guess from, while Ni is just stuff from the unconscious that you basically seek to fill in the information. (Hence, "freeing sense impressions from their larger [external] contexts" as Lenore puts it).
    Me; I'll get these internal images or sense of things, but I don't trust them. They're just "there", and I almost always assume it's "illusion" or irrelevent. (To the point that I did not even know these were what Ni was based off of, and what could also be used to fill in a situation).
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  10. #630
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    My intuition never feels like a guess....I just know it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Me; I'll get these internal images or sense of things, but I don't trust them. They're just "there", and I almost always assume it's "illusion" or irrelevent. (To the point that I did not even know these were what Ni was based off of, and what could also be used to fill in a situation).
    I stopped trusting my intuition for years....as I made way too many choices based on it that I didn't like the outcomes....not that it was wrong, I just didn't like the outcomes.

    But I am much, much in touch with myself now that I roll with my intuition. It might need some framing to make sense of it, but it is far better to trust yourself and be yourself rather than some artificial construct fearful of their own guidance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

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    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

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    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984

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