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  1. #581
    FREEEEEEEEEEEEEE Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Well, it's a bit easier to agree on the definition of a table. Bald assertions claiming to be a definition beg the question.
    I'll have to assume Jung's definitions anyway which could be entirely fantasy when they lack scientific investigation.
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  2. #582
    FREEEEEEEEEEEEEE Mal12345's Avatar
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    Here is a great quote about John Maynard Keynes which expresses the INTJ mindset:

    Roy Harrod: "Keynes [spoke] on a great range of topics, on some of which he was thoroughly an expert, but on others [he had] derived his views from the few pages of a book at which he had happened to glance. The air of authority was the same in both cases."
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  3. #583
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    I'll have to assume Jung's definitions anyway which could be entirely fantasy when they lack scientific investigation.
    And if Jung is an Ni dom? Where does that put Ni, or all the rest of the functions, if it was just made up from whole cloth as you assert.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Here is a great quote about John Maynard Keynes which expresses the INTJ mindset:

    Roy Harrod: "Keynes [spoke] on a great range of topics, on some of which he was thoroughly an expert, but on others [he had] derived his views from the few pages of a book at which he had happened to glance. The air of authority was the same in both cases."
    Well, it sounds like we probably agree more or less on the validity of Keynes' analysis. For various reasons, however, I would currently type him as ISTP. The way he looks at equlibria and assumes that if they "aren't in equilibrium," that they need to be "fixed" is very Ti in its need for self-consistency (rather than supposing that like a swing, equilibria will always tend towards equlibrium without any outside influence).
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  4. #584
    FREEEEEEEEEEEEEE Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    And if Jung is an Ni dom? Where does that put Ni, or all the rest of the functions, if it was just made up from whole cloth as you assert.
    From the whole cloth of Jung's unconscious mind, perhaps. Or wherever the cloth comes from. According to Kant (INTJ), the universe of our spatial perceptions could be said to be made up of a uniform and indivisible "cloth," or as he called it, a "pure intuition."
    "Did you exchange
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  5. #585
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Neither does the definition of 'table.'
    Mendeleev might beg to differ.
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  6. #586
    FREEEEEEEEEEEEEE Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Mendeleev might beg to differ.
    Not that kind of table.
    "Did you exchange
    A walk-on part in the war
    for a lead role in a cage?"

    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson

  7. #587
    Junior Member Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    A lot of people use both, therefore they have a difficult time telling which is which.. They are the same thing just going in different directions. They do the same thing except with a different emphasis ..

    Ne is perceiving abstract patterns and connections in response to stimuli (either in the external world or in the mind. ) Ne generates new information starting from something existing. Ne focuses on future possibilities.

    Ni is the creation of mental imagery independent of outer stimuli. Ni generates abstract structural images of a given problem domain that a person can view from different points of view at will. Ni focuses on the structure of things from a timeless point of view.
    I've looked over many people's cognitive function tests, and I haven't found one that have been able to consistently tell people with Ni apart from people with Ne. Most questionnaires end up giving people scores where they are suggested to have 90% chance of having Ni, and 80% chance of having Ne, with very small percentual differences between the two. Socionics does a fairly consistent job of telling the two apart, but do so by generalizing on Ni and Ne to have personality traits that I believe are unrelated to the two functions.

    I still like the definition provided here, in particular Ne being in response to stimuli, and Ni being independent of outer stimuli. Ni is activated by using top-down processing (which means looking at the world from a set of previously conceived beliefs, values, knowledge) so Ni always has a bias based on whatever is within their field of interest. Ni is found managing the working memory. Ne on the other hand, is responding to the outer world. Ne indicates looking at new information conceptually, as if it was a fantasy, while Ni (Se) looks at new information realistically, critically, as if there's potentially something wrong with everything new they see/hear. Ni is open-minded and conceptual about values, beliefs, and knowledge, able to synthesize, generalize, and play with their sense of self, their knowledge on a topic.

    Both, I think, are focused on future possibilities, both enjoy and are motivated by discussing what could be. Intuitives have an amazing connection. They connect better with each others than with they connect with sensors, because they speak the same language. Ni and Ne just indicates that their interest in intuition is expressed differently, and experienced in different situations. For example, Ni-users will experience themselves being more open-minded when they are goal-oriented and determined, while Ne is more open-minded and creative mid-learning new information.
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  8. #588
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I'm an exception, where Ne is high (strongest when I first took it, then moved to the accurate second place), and Ni was always my weakest. I believe this is because both Ne and Si are strong for me (Si also, accurately third place), so I simply have a greater clarity of preference for the "Inquiring Awareness" functions than for the "Realizing" ones. (Se was always next to last, as well).
    Other N's who do not have as great a clarity, may just be strong in general "iNtuition" and score high in both (while for NP's, Si will be weak).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  9. #589
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Ni vs Ne

    intuition x operative orientation = intuition x (semantic vs episodic. semantic vs pragmatic (linguistics). phonological loop vs visuo-spatial sketchpad. top-down vs bottom-up. intentional vs extensional. purpose vs process/path. balanced perspective vs balanced path. object vs action. subject vs predicate. mind identifying with mind vs mind identifying with matter. conservative vs liberal (psychologically). ancestral vs offspring. transcendent vs immanent. ancient vs modern. atemporal vs aspatial (kant's forms of intuition, which one is the foundation for the other?). assumed vs experiential. generalization vs specification (albeit given the recursive N cross-contextualization process). hierarchy vs heterarchy. condition vs rule. integration vs derivation. identity vs difference. unity vs multiplicity. outsidedness vs insidedness. ontlogical vs ontic. inductive vs deductive (times abductive). external validity vs internal validity. language vs physics. structure vs process. argument vs explanation. map vs territory)

    it's part of a flow of information. they're not things in themselves. they're directions. hell, i still think the left-brain/right-brain approximations are the best at capturing this. in yoga psychologies, they're often referred to as "channels."

  10. #590
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Just came to realize, that I described Ne as looking at a bunch of "objects" in the environment (like multiple patterns a given pattern can be compared to), but tI think Ni can look at multiple patterns in the environment also, the difference will be, and what Ni will do internally is choose one of them as the most possible, where to Ne they can all be "possible".

    I recalled the definition of [all] introverted functions as all "abstracting" what's most relevant, and subtracting from it what isn't. So Ni and Ne will look at all the same data, but Ne will accept whatever is in the environment, while Ni will individually filter according to the unconscious impressions. For the Ne type to abstract what's most relevant, they will have to use their judgment (which will be the introverted preference), which will rationally do the sorting, where Ni will do the sorting irrationally, so rather than a [rational] true/false or good/bad determination of what's right, it will come out as a a "knowing" or the so-called "a-ha" (then the judgment will be used to handle the environmental aspect of the data).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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