User Tag List

First 40484950515260 Last

Results 491 to 500 of 959

  1. #491
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEI Ni
    Posts
    7,663

    Default

    The best way I can get my head around an intellectual description of Ni is to see it as choosing a perspective, not because its factually the most correct or evident, because it seems the most consistent with some internally sourced archetypes. Ne also chooses a perspective, not which is most evident and certainly not the most factual, but which seems to have the most potential to create something novel and/or something connected to a Ji concept (because these don't exist in a vacuum from the other functions). This is why NPs seem the most disconnected from reality or "absent-minded" or "dreamy" because it appears to be wishful thinking from the outside. Ni looks delusional too, but in the way where someone frames reality to be whatever it is they want it to be, with complete disregard for actual facts, so that no matter an outcome, it is what they predicted, because it can be framed that way. That's sort of like wishful thinking too, but the change is in the internal perspective, whereas with Ne, the possibilities are out there, and it's a matter of you being able to chase them, cultivate them, and create the change outside of yourself. For the Ne type, if the outcome is not turning out to be the potential initially seen, then they abandon and move on, whereas Ni types can stubbornly stick to it and insist it is what they said it would be. The Ni type seems less fickle because of this, but they are really abandoning an internal perspective in favor of a new one which shapes reality as they want it to be (or which gives them a sense of control of its outcomes), and this is as just as fickle, and perhaps which gives them the reputation for suddenly going cold on people or dropping an entire system of belief, as if to start from a blank slate. As a parallel, Fi expresses less than Fe, but when it does, then its in a big way; Ni may do less 180s than Ne, but when it does, then it really throws stuff on its head.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe
    Likes GarrotTheThief, uumlau, Eilonwy liked this post

  2. #492
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Posts
    1,683

    Default

    The way I think of NI is when you're trying to solve a problem for hours and you finally say, darn I give up and throw up your arms, and then a few hours later you'll be eating a fruit or sitting on the john and suddenly you'll come to an insight on what will solve the problem or come to some crazy outrageous idea for something that is completely unrelated but solves some issue that you're not paid or shouldn't think about. Oh wait, that second one is inferior NE.
    "i shut the door and in the morning
    it was open
    -the end"




    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  3. #493
    Member corpseparty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Enneagram
    7w6
    Posts
    81

    Default

    "It's 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife!"

  4. #494
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    953 sp/so
    Posts
    5,708

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by corpseparty View Post
    "It's 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife!"
    Isn't it Nironic?
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  5. #495
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    This other blogger, however, notices a lot of different things, and observes it from a totally different angle.
    He suggests that a photo like this (that he saw as part of a series shown in some presentation, apparently) “contains symbolic use of lighting (amazing considering the primitive level of the technology at the time) and spectacular use of mise en scène.
    Using a tangible example like this to examine the functional space is interesting.

    To me, when I read the blogger's description, I sense it has gone astray not because of Ti details (and there's an important one you note) but Fi details. The Fi space that I sense, the subjective internal space from each person, doesn't match up. So although I find the examination of potential symbolism interesting, because it doesn't mesh with the sense of internal truth I get from the people, it somewhat falls flat. Still thought-provoking and interesting though, but I want a truth from it, actual bare truth. How those people felt in that picture bears relevance to the truth. I hate talking about what I feel from each person because I can never prove what I sense to be fully true, and in this instance, all of those people are dead and we will never know what happened at the moment of that photo. Kind of a bummer, in subjectively-subjective land.

    For that photo to embody those qualities above, there had to be intention. Do you think Ni comes to the table with that intention in mind to take a photo like this? Or is intention simply applied like a patina after the fact, identifying subconscious drivers to the construct? (Just general questions there, not specifically directed at you Eric.) I find that presumptuous, just as someone would find me identifying the inner space of the people in that photo presumptuous too.

    And opposingly, sometimes I just want to say, a picture is just a picture. Not much deeper than that.

    From above, you mention:

    "What the INTJ nails a possibility down with would be Te (its practical usefulness); hence, seeming rigidly against something TiNe comes up with, and yet, at the same time, they are the ones in a way being more “open” to certain things."

    Do you think the 'being open' to certain things is due to / about Fi? Can you expand that more? What kind of things do you mean?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #496
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,451

    Default

    I hadn't presumed what the person's judgment preference was. (Whether INFJ or INTJ). Ti would be for the former, but Fi for the latter (both tertiary, respectively). I would probably have to read more of his stuff to really gather.

    Being "open" refers to "perception", because you're just taking in information, and not "nailing anything down" with a judgment. We normally think of "openness" as being associated with extraverted Perception, represented by a "P". But I was giving a nod to Personality Junkie (and by extension, Socionics, and Jung himself), who make "p" dominant perception, which include the dominant introverted perceptions, or IJ's. We look at openness or closedness in terms of what they display on the outside; hence Myers' useful for interaction J/P scale. But being internally open means when they turn within, they will take whatever their Sensing or iNtuition tells them, and usually not try to force it into a framework, with a judgment function (unless, of course, the tertiary gets involved; usually as a next line of defense).
    Of course, we don't see this; we just see then "closing" things with extraverted judgment. In the case of this blogger, he went with whatever his iNtuition told him, and did not use a lot of ["rational"] judgment at all.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  7. #497
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I hadn't presumed what the person's judgment preference was. (Whether INFJ or INTJ). Ti would be for the former, but Fi for the latter (both tertiary, respectively). I would probably have to read more of his stuff to really gather.

    Being "open" refers to "perception", because you're just taking in information, and not "nailing anything down" with a judgment. We normally think of "openness" as being associated with extraverted Perception, represented by a "P". But I was giving a nod to Personality Junkie (and by extension, Socionics, and Jung himself), who make "p" dominant perception, which include the dominant introverted perceptions, or IJ's. We look at openness or closedness in terms of what they display on the outside; hence Myers' useful for interaction J/P scale. But being internally open means when they turn within, they will take whatever their Sensing or iNtuition tells them, and usually not try to force it into a framework, with a judgment function (unless, of course, the tertiary gets involved; usually as a next line of defense).
    Of course, we don't see this; we just see then "closing" things with extraverted judgment. In the case of this blogger, he went with whatever his iNtuition told him, and did not use a lot of ["rational"] judgment at all.
    Yes, that's all very good. What I'm getting at, is how INJ's find each other closed I guess. So, the things that you as an INTP sense as 'open' mesh (more naturally) with what an INFJ will agree (mol) with. You will (at a higher level of probability) experience an INTJ closed in a similar way (and the only evidence I can provide for that atm are my empirical observations). There's a similar phenomenon in INFP / INTJ interactions (loosely, Fi-Te interactions.) We sense Ti-Fe closed in a different way.

    I was wondering if you had some thoughts as to how to define what you mention as "certain things". What is Ni-Te open to that Ni-Fe is not? And vice-versa?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #498
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,451

    Default

    The "certain things" [they are open to]was what I mentioned: "they will take whatever their Sensing or iNtuition tells them, and usually not try to force it into a framework, with a judgment function".
    Ni is "open" to the "internal (and likely unconscious) [and "missing"] elements, that are used as 'alternative possibilities' to guage the situation by." Si is open to the stored tangible experience it references. When dominant, the ego's main world view is this openness to these things, where for a Ji dom. like me wants to close off the internal information after enough is taken in so that Thinking can make its decisions with it.

    Ni-Te and Ni-Fe would be "open" to the same things, because it's the same perception function, and only the judgment is different. All that means is that when turning outward with assessments of situations, one's focus will be more impersonal, and the other more personal.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  9. #499
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    953 sp/so
    Posts
    5,708

    Default

    I really liked this post, OA.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The best way I can get my head around an intellectual description of Ni is to see it as choosing a perspective, not because its factually the most correct or evident, because it seems the most consistent with some internally sourced archetypes.
    This is so close to being dead-on accurate. It only has one flaw, which you can see if you compare it to Si. Si references internally stored archetypes, too. However, Si doesn't CHOOSE them: they were created by experience.

    Similarly, Ni doesn't "choose" the perspective it perceives, as much as it might seem like it to others. Rather, think of both Si and Ni as libraries of experiences. Si stores the concrete, literal versions of those experiences, but doesn't tend to keep functional/purpose/meaning-based attributes of it. Ni stores a more functional/purpose/meaning-based version of experiences, but tends to lose track of the concrete specifics.

    Both Si and Ni can quickly pull up their respective libraries, and quickly rifle through the index to pull up the most relevant past experience.

    So what Ni does is look at reality, e.g., at a problem, and immediately sees "what kind of problem" it is, pulls out the Ni-experience that relates to it, and it is nigh-instantly solved. (Just as if you'd asked Si about a fact, and the Si individual immediately recites the correct fact to you.)

    Ni doesn't remember facts. It remembers how to solve "that kind of problem" in a very abstract way. As you might notice, putting "that kind of problem" into more concrete terms is very difficult.

    Ne also chooses a perspective, not which is most evident and certainly not the most factual, but which seems to have the most potential to create something novel and/or something connected to a Ji concept (because these don't exist in a vacuum from the other functions). This is why NPs seem the most disconnected from reality or "absent-minded" or "dreamy" because it appears to be wishful thinking from the outside.
    You are going to have more of an understanding of Ne than I do, but I don't think Ne chooses a perspective either.

    Perhaps the difference is that you are judging dom and I am perceiving dom? You always end up choosing what you look at and how you look at it, perhaps? A blindness of Ni doms is that we don't really feel like we're "choosing" anything, that it's just there, but it probably looks like a "choice" to others.

    Ni looks delusional too, but in the way where someone frames reality to be whatever it is they want it to be, with complete disregard for actual facts, so that no matter an outcome, it is what they predicted, because it can be framed that way.
    Again, the notion of "whatever it is they want it to be" is off. This is how it looks to others, not to oneself. What you are experiencing perhaps from other Ni types is that they appear to want to change whatever it is you believe to be true, and you're immediate thought is likely, "But that's reality. You don't get to change that."

    The reality is that they see a different reality than you do. They're looking at a different set of interconnections that you don't readily see, just as you see interconnections that Ni doms don't readily see.

    Ni doms don't "choose" that perspective that they apply. It's what they see. It is their reality. AND they don't often realize that other people don't look at the world that way. Self-awareness for an INTJ is when we realize that no, we aren't that smart, but rather we simply don't look at the world the way everyone else seems to. Most people don't look at the world and see a complex system of cause-and-effect that can be altered in fundamental ways. One surprise for me was that what most people view as static, I see as entirely flexible and changeable. Conversely, what most people view as flexible and changeable I see as almost-immutable law, e.g., analogous to the laws of physics.

    That's sort of like wishful thinking too, but the change is in the internal perspective, whereas with Ne, the possibilities are out there, and it's a matter of you being able to chase them, cultivate them, and create the change outside of yourself. For the Ne type, if the outcome is not turning out to be the potential initially seen, then they abandon and move on, whereas Ni types can stubbornly stick to it and insist it is what they said it would be.
    Interesting perspective, here. I think what you are encountering is the different visions of the world, again, which see different kinds of things as mutable/immutable.

    Quick and dirty function-theory version: To Ne/Si, the concrete is immutable, the abstract is mutable. To Ni/Se, the abstract is immutable, the concrete is mutable.

    The Ni type seems less fickle because of this, but they are really abandoning an internal perspective in favor of a new one which shapes reality as they want it to be (or which gives them a sense of control of its outcomes),
    More likely, circumstances changed (Se is mutable) which drew up a different Ni-experience-model-abstraction. To you, it looks like they just totally changed their mind, and don't even remember that you had just proven them wrong, for example. What really happened is that you believe there is only one context (Si is immutable), therefore the Ni dom just did a 180-degree logical reversal.

    My ENFP ex and I had some really weird arguments along these lines early in our relationship, until after an explanation of mine she realized, "Hey, waitaminute! You changed context. You're not even talking about what I'm talking about now!" To which I replied, "Yes. Exactly. Why wasn't that obvious before?"

    You might wonder how that fits into Ni being immutable. Ni is still immutable because the old context didn't just disappear. It still exists in abstract, but doesn't apply now in the concrete instance. If the context switched back, you'd hear the same arguments as before the original switch. Further, there can be kind of a "chaos theory" kind of effect: a slight change in circumstances can produce a radically different conclusion even when maintaining the same Ni-understanding. Physics and math are full of things like this, where the math doesn't change at all, but a slightly different input value produces a significantly different result.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
    Likes Eilonwy, chubber liked this post

  10. #500
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,451

    Default

    No, Ni or any other perception function doesn't "choose" anything. Only judgment does that.

    I'm now wondering, if an example of Ni is when we come up with an idea, and it seems to fit so well, yet there's this sense that we might be missing something, or even overlooking something that collapses the whole premise; even though this factor is not yet known. Ne ignores this and hopes it goes away (for all that matters is that it can fit, and after all, nothing solid disproving it is being presented), while an Ni perspective would say "let's look at this and see what it really is".
    Ni was described to me as "giving a voice" to something that [perhaps] could not be articulated, and I didn't fully get this at first, but then it suddenly dawned on me that it might be describing this subconscious sense of something missing, or things being "too good to be true".

    Does that accurately describe Ni dom. experience?
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

Similar Threads

  1. [INTJ] What the hell is an INTJ?
    By Haphazard in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 12-07-2012, 06:04 PM
  2. Naomi Klein: What the hell is her problem, anyway?
    By pure_mercury in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-21-2009, 05:37 PM
  3. What the hell is going on in this picture?
    By RiderOnTheStorm in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 06-08-2009, 01:52 AM
  4. What the hell is going on? (Conspiracy)
    By Fluffywolf in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 05-02-2009, 07:10 AM
  5. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 04-28-2009, 12:55 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO