What matters more - Type or Gender?

[Coriolis]

I may be typical of my type, which is a good thing in my opinion. But the ways in which I think females are similar due to similar experience apply to me too.

For instance, due to greater vulnerability to being raped, women will perceive certain things in a more threatening manner than men will.

Yeah, you've just illustrated my point. There are some things which are nearly universal among women, which one can't really say about type. Or maybe we can; I do sometimes on here and get criticized for it.

Not every woman goes through life worrying from day to day that she will be raped. I certainly don't. I'm sure more women worry about it than men do, partly because most rape victims are women, and partly because women are often not raised with the confidence and self-sufficiency to counteract that fear. It is not the defining feature you make it out to be. (But we've had this discussion elsewhere.)

FWIW I just want to say again that a big part of feminist theory would not exist if people didn't think there were any differences between the genders.

Thinking there is a difference doesn't make it so. For generations people insisted on significant racial differences in intelligence and other abilities, differences that were not supported by evidence once people bothered to examine it. People even once thought the earth was flat, and at the center of the universe. Considerable scholarly effort went into refuting these claims.

It's all God's fault; he dictated your incarnation onto the weaker of the 2 human spectral ends.

How biblical. This is the misguided and insidious message of the Adam and Eve story, which has probably contributed more to misogyny over the generations than any other cultural element. It can be a herculean effort for a woman (or man) to escape the straitjacket of this mindset.

I can't help but laugh when misogynistic men assume all Women think and act like ESF's.

What's even worse is when women make this assumption.

 

[digesthisickness]

I doubt it's all that big a shock to find that most women would have it go through their minds if they found themselves alone in an alley late at night and saw a man following and gaining ground on her. It has nothing to do with confidence and ability and everything to do with using your smarts to know you could have a problem if you don't think fast. Confidence. Geesh. It's common sense as a female to know it's possible. And, much more so than for a man to think the same in the same situation.

 

[rav3n]

As far as gender or type being more a driving force behind personhood, I would say gender.

Gender is bombarded by biological drives and environment which encompasses parental guidance, peer pressure, educational pressure, societal pressure and opposite gender stimuli. It's at our core and is reflected in the male and female dichotomies within each type.

Taking into consideration mistypes on TypeC, there's a clear delineation between genders. Watch behaviour and it will become obvious.

I agree.

I also notice that there's a very strong trend in this thread for people whose type "aligns" with their gender to say that gender is most important, and for people whose type does not align with their gender to say that type is more important. (I'm no exception.)

edit: if I'm not mistaken, people from both groups have supported type as the most important, but I haven't seen any female Ts or male Fs saying that gender is the most important factor. I may have missed it, though.

You missed my post from 2010 which I still agree with. The impacts of estrogen and testosterone are undeniable.

 

[Salomé]

I may be typical of my type, which is a good thing in my opinion. But the ways in which I think females are similar due to similar experience apply to me too.

That wasn't my point. I've never been certain what your type is, only that it's not INTP (as you originally claimed). If your assertion were true, irrespective of this you and I would still have more in common than I would with male INTPs. That's not the case. I have a much easier time relating to and understanding other people of my own type, regardless of gender, than people with whom I share gender but not type. Ease of understanding diminishes predictably the more function order varies. It's perhaps harder for you to understand this because your type aligns quite closely with the feminine archetype so you likely confuse the two. It's easier for gender/type combinations which deviate from this pattern to discern the true boundaries.
The only way to measure the relative accuracy of each system is by examining anomalies.

T women (and F men) are the black swans of gender essentialism.

For instance, due to greater vulnerability to being raped, women will perceive certain things in a more threatening manner than men will.

You should be careful about making these kinds of sweeping statements, given that you do not know what goes on in the heads of other women. My own perception of threat has always been near nonexistent - characteristic of an oblivious INTP. I have always taken fewer precautions and more risks than (I'm told) most men would. I spend no time whatsoever worrying about being raped (or worrying in general). And I haven't been, so it hasn't disadvantaged me. You might argue that women who have been raped or assaulted worry more about being raped than others, but then, so do men who have been raped - such are the effects of trauma. I'll wager that an attractive young man entering prison worries more about rape than a woman entering prison. Fear of rape is a function of (perceived) risk of rape, not a function of gender, so to ascribe any potential differences to gender is to seriously misunderstand the nature of the problem.

Clearly, sex differences exist (one only has to look at crime or health stats to see evidence of that) and to ignore them is a mistake, but to manufacture them is a bigger one.

 

[greenfairy]

[MENTION=5143]Salomé[/MENTION], you may be right; I would have ventured to say that almost all women are at least aware of the possibility of being raped and of what might constitute a potential threat (and this would have a strong effect on communication), but if you really are as oblivious as you describe and it is type related then it might be more common than I think. I think it is pretty uncommon, but then a lot of women put themselves in dangerous situations seemingly without thinking, so who knows. I do think typology is useful in revealing the falsity of gender stereotypes and facilitating communication in general (and especially in this regard).

So I'm going to go with both. I do think gender is important in interaction with people, but type (and other individual factors) can be just as important depending on to what degree the person in question relates to their gender archetype.

 

[digesthisickness]

That wasn't my point. I've never been certain what your type is, only that it's not INTP (as you originally claimed). If your assertion were true, irrespective of this you and I would still have more in common than I would with male INTPs. That's not the case. I have a much easier time relating to and understanding other people of my own type, regardless of gender, than people with whom I share gender but not type. Ease of understanding diminishes predictably the more function order varies. It's perhaps harder for you to understand this because your type aligns quite closely with the feminine archetype so you likely confuse the two. It's easier for gender/type combinations which deviate from this pattern to discern the true boundaries.
The only way to measure the relative accuracy of each system is by examining anomalies.

T women (and F men) are the black swans of gender essentialism.


You should be careful about making these kinds of sweeping statements, given that you do not know what goes on in the heads of other women. My own perception of threat has always been near nonexistent - characteristic of an oblivious INTP. I have always taken fewer precautions and more risks than (I'm told) most men would. I spend no time whatsoever worrying about being raped (or worrying in general). And I haven't been, so it hasn't disadvantaged me. You might argue that women who have been raped or assaulted worry more about being raped than others, but then, so do men who have been raped - such are the effects of trauma. I'll wager that an attractive young man entering prison worries more about rape than a woman entering prison. Fear of rape is a function of (perceived) risk of rape, not a function of gender, so to ascribe any potential differences to gender is to seriously misunderstand the nature of the problem.

Clearly, sex differences exist (one only has to look at crime or health stats to see evidence of that) and to ignore them is a mistake, but to manufacture them is a bigger one.

Bolded the parts that pretty much speak my own mind on the subject. In my own experiences as both a female and an ENTP, I couldn't have said it better. There is a reason why I'm extremely aware when speaking to F females (which is most of them) AND males of all F types that I need to change the manner in which I communicate and the way I act. Because I can't just wing it and be understood.

There's also a reason why I can relax much more around male Fs. They're more "T" than the females. Tell the truth, people, when talking to a female T, who is being herself, do you not quickly perceive that difference?

Leaving the post I quoted behind now. As for the rape business, that's a combo of being aware of your environment as a female and being not dumb about the odds of it more likely occurring if you're female. If the environment is dangerous, you're a fool not to know you could be in danger, period, but if a girl, there's a much better chance that part of that possible danger is rape.

That said, I won't be fucking bonding with every F chick I meet with this subject, so it's pretty moot to me. There's never going to be a meet and greet, outside of group therapy, that includes, "Hey! I'm afraid of rape too! Let's talk all night and make s'mores!"

 

[rav3n]

I'm starting to consider an unsubstantiated hypothesis about T and F women. That T women have higher levels of testosterone with a lower end spectrum of estrogen and F women have lower to mid-level testosterone and higher end estrogen.

The reason I say this is because of the impacts of testosterone, where it's been documented to reduce empathy and appears to impact on the need for social dominance. Testosterone is also more interested in equity and is also more assertive/aggressive. Even neural pathway carving is heavily impacted during the puberty years, although part of this would be nurture.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I'm starting to consider an unsubstantiated hypothesis about T and F women. That T women have higher levels of testosterone with a lower end spectrum of estrogen and F women have lower to mid-level testosterone and higher end estrogen.

The reason I say this is because of the impacts of testosterone, where it's been documented to reduce empathy and appears to impact on the need for social dominance. Testosterone is also more interested in equity and is also more assertive/aggressive. Even neural pathway carving is heavily impacted during the puberty years, although part of this would be nurture.

That might be why more men tend to be T's and women, F's as well.

 

[rav3n]

That might be why more men tend to be T's and women, F's as well.

Possibly, although people have to bear in mind that there are ranges for normal levels of estrogen and testosterone for each biological sex.

 

[Randomnity]

That said, I won't be fucking bonding with every F chick I meet with this subject, so it's pretty moot to me. There's never going to be a meet and greet, outside of group therapy, that includes, "Hey! I'm afraid of rape too! Let's talk all night and make s'mores!"

Exactly this - fear/awareness of potential rape (and otherwise recognition of our usually-lower physical strength) is definitely something most women (not all) have in common. However, I really really really don't feel like this is something that affects my personality in a major way. I have lots more in common with an ISTP dude that never thinks about rape at all than I do with an ENFP girl who is conscious of it in the same way I am. It's just really not a big part of my life, or at least the parts of it that don't involve being in deserted places at night. I'm only aware of it when I need to be.

 

[The Great One]

I learned from the best! [MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION]

I'm so proud of you. You are coming along nicely.

 

[Cantus Firmus]

As an INFP male, I tend to relate more to most women than I do to most men. I think type matters more than gender, once you account for the statistical distribution of types anong the genders (as the OP noted). I don't define myself by my gender; I do define myself by the elements of my personality. "Introvert" tells you much more about me than "male" does.

So I agree that those who match their genders' typical types may be conflating what comes from their type and what comes from their gender.

 

[Coriolis]

I doubt it's all that big a shock to find that most women would have it go through their minds if they found themselves alone in an alley late at night and saw a man following and gaining ground on her. It has nothing to do with confidence and ability and everything to do with using your smarts to know you could have a problem if you don't think fast. Confidence. Geesh. It's common sense as a female to know it's possible. And, much more so than for a man to think the same in the same situation.

I wrote that rape is not a day-to-day worry for women as much as the previous poster suggested. I am assuming that most women (or even most men) don't find themselves alone in a dark alley late at night being followed by a stranger on a regular basis. Anyone in that situation should be aware of the risks. "Using your smarts" to know you could have a problem and to think fast has everything to do with confidence and ability. Awareness, preparedness, and ability all fuel confidence, and a confident attitude is one aspect of a sound defense.

Like Salomé, I don't worry much about rape, but for almost opposite reasons. I am always evaluating situations for risk, assessing what my resources and options would be, and taking appropriate precautions and preparations. I don't focus on rape, but rather crime/assault in general, which could be mugging, carjacking, even an active shooter situation. Also emergencies like car breakdown, fire, sudden illness especially while travelling, money trouble while travelling, etc. Life is full of risks. These realities then become not so much sources of worry, but factors that influence my choices and actions, like any other.

 

[IZthe411]

Gender.
At the heart of it all a woman is still a woman at the core.
I have dated an ISFP and an INTJ and both of them, at some point, was hurt when I (unknowingly) shrugged off intimate 'us' talk. So while the INTJ exibitied similar traits of NT thought and behaviour to me (the mential connection was off the chain), she still desired that closeness that all women want, regardless of type.

I even know some ESTJ chicks. Cold, hard, chicks, who 'changed' when I didn't give them that feminine attention.
Type's secondary in gender relations.

 

[RaptorWizard]

Like Salomé, I don't worry much about rape, but for almost opposite reasons. I am always evaluating situations for risk, assessing what my resources and options would be, and taking appropriate precautions and preparations. I don't focus on rape, but rather crime/assault in general, which could be mugging, carjacking, even an active shooter situation. Also emergencies like car breakdown, fire, sudden illness especially while travelling, money trouble while travelling, etc. Life is full of risks. These realities then become not so much sources of worry, but factors that influence my choices and actions, like any other.

You Te types can be so boring sometimes, always preparing for all of the possible problems in advance, thinking way ahead and such. But that takes away the epic magical randomness!

 

[digesthisickness]

Let us all come together and bond over not getting attention from our men because suddenly I can talk to you for you understand the most important part of me, my need for male attention.

 

[highlander]

I see at least one obvious problem: the widely cited conclusions are absurd. Not to mention, unfounded.
We have known about structural differences in the brains of men and women for some time : for example, that women have proportionally more grey matter (brain cells) and men more white (connective tissue). However, given that we have such limited understanding of how brains work, we have no basis for drawing conclusions about what any such structural differences might mean. To jump from "the left and right hemispheres are better connected in women" to "women are more analytical AND intuitive" is patently absurd. About as valid as the "science" of 19th century phrenology.

I am interested in brain lateralisation, and I find it unsurprising that women's brains might be more highly "integrated" than men's are, and we know of at least one mechanism for mediating such differences, in that testosterone is neurotoxic and effectively "prunes" adolescent male brains more severely than is the case for adolescent non-male brains, and that this process probably starts in utero. However, we don't know enough to draw sound conclusions about innate gender-specific abilities / disabilities that might arise thereby or whether these might be acquired more by nature or nurture, especially when research exists which overturns long-held assumptions about "innate" differences in, for example, math ability. (http://healthland.time.com/2011/08/30/the-math-gender-gap-nurture-can-trump-nature/)

What we can be certain of, is that human brains are highly plastic by default and that individual differences are much more significant than those that can be attributed to gender. Also that the effects of nurture on the postnatal brain are at least, if not more, important then those of nature in determining adult capacities. We know, for example, that a brain primed by nature to excel in the use of language will nevertheless result in a completely dumb, illiterate adult if the critical period for acquiring language does not include appropriate stimuli / learning experiences. Above all else, we are creatures with an enhanced capacity to learn from others. I believe that innate differences in our capacity to acquire different skills owe more to typological difference than to gender. In fact, statistics prove this to be the case. The best people in any field outperform the vast majority of the population (of either gender). This would not be true if gender were more highly deterministic than other factors.

What is odd is that highlander would try to use this study to support his prejudices, when it actually appears to do the opposite. I guess he got distracted by the headline and ignored the content. A common enough mistake.

That's a good post until you got to the last paragraph. I'm not supporting anything. I just said it was interesting.

Stop trolling me.

 

[Randomnity]

Gender.
At the heart of it all a woman is still a woman at the core.
I have dated an ISFP and an INTJ and both of them, at some point, was hurt when I (unknowingly) shrugged off intimate 'us' talk. So while the INTJ exibitied similar traits of NT thought and behaviour to me (the mential connection was off the chain), she still desired that closeness that all women want, regardless of type.

I even know some ESTJ chicks. Cold, hard, chicks, who 'changed' when I didn't give them that feminine attention.
Type's secondary in gender relations.

Weird, I've never dated a guy who didn't want the "feminine" closeness and attention you describe. It's almost like connection is a universal human desire or something. At least if you're looking for more than a fuck buddy.

 

[Eruca]

Gender.
At the heart of it all a woman is still a woman at the core.
I have dated an ISFP and an INTJ and both of them, at some point, was hurt when I (unknowingly) shrugged off intimate 'us' talk. So while the INTJ exibitied similar traits of NT thought and behaviour to me (the mential connection was off the chain), she still desired that closeness that all women want, regardless of type.

I even know some ESTJ chicks. Cold, hard, chicks, who 'changed' when I didn't give them that feminine attention.
Type's secondary in gender relations.

The OPs question was which helps us understand someone more, gender or type?

I point this out because I would say type helps us understand someone more. But gender, by a strong margin, helps us "deal" with someone in day to day life. By which I mean, if we want to befriend, socialize with, convince, seduce, relate to etc etc someone it is much more helpful to know their gender than to know their type. This is not because their gender, as a trait, explains more than their type, or defines more of their personality, but because people don't fulfill the roles of ESFJs or ESTJ etc in real life, they fulfill the roles of men and women. Furthermore, they are expected to fill such roles and are aware on some level they fulfill those roles and identify with such roles. In other words, if you want to interact with someone you have to interact with the person you are supposed to think they are--man or a woman, with who that person actually is being of less direct importance.

Have you ever thought that maybe those ex-girlfriends were upset because your disregard of the "done" gender relations suggested you didn't care for them? That you weren't willing to fulfill your gendered responsibility and it was this that bothered them more so than a loss of intimate conversation?

 

[IZthe411]

Weird, I've never dated a guy who didn't want the "feminine" closeness and attention you describe. It's almost like connection is a universal human desire or something. At least if you're looking for more than a fuck buddy.

Based on this post by the OP:

A few more relevant tidbits below. A lot of it seems like T vs F. I don't know....

"Misunderstandings stem from differing interaction styles
Men and women have different ways of showing support, interest and caring
Men and women often perceive the same message in different ways
Women tend to see communication more as a way to connect and enhance the sense of closeness in the relationship
Men see communication more as a way to accomplish objectives
Women give more response cues and nonverbal cues to indicate interest and build a relationship
Men use feedback to signal actual agreement and disagreement
For women, "ums" "uh-huhs" and "yeses" simply mean they are showing interest and being responsive
For men, these same responses indicate is agreement or disagreement with what is being communicated
For women, talking is the primary way to become closer to another person
For men, shared goals and accomplishing tasks is the primary way to become close to another person
Men are more likely to express caring by doing something concrete for or doing something together with another person
Women can avoid being hurt by men by realizing how men communicate caring
Men can avoid being hurt by women by realizing how women communicate caring
Women who want to express caring to men can do so more effectively by doing something for them or doing something with them
Men who want to express caring to women can do so more effectively by verbally communicating that they care
Men emphasize independence and are therefor less likely to ask for help in accomplishing an objective
Men are much less likely to ask for directions when they are lost than women
Men desire to maintain autonomy and to not appear weak or incompetent
Women develop identity within relationships more than men
Women seek out and welcome relationships with others more than men
Men tend to think that relationships jeopardize their independence
For women, relationships are a constant source of interest, attention and communication
For men, relationships are not as central
The term "Talking about us" means very different things to men and women
Men feel that there is no need to talk about a relationship that is going well
Women feel that a relationship is going well as long as they are talking about it
Women can avoid being hurt by realizing that men don't necessarily feel the need to talk about a relationship that is going well
Men can help improve communication in a relationship by applying the rules of feminine communication
Women can help improve communication in a relationship by applying the rules of masculine communication
Just as Western communication rules wouldn't necessarily apply in an Asian culture, masculine rules wouldn't necessarily apply in a feminine culture, and vice verse."

My experiences are based on the itialicized last few lines, which summarize everything above it, and it happens regardless of type.
I never said I didn't desire a connection. It's just that eventually these roles will play out.

Men and women often perceive the same message in different ways.