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Why are ISTPs and INTJs confused so much?

Mr. Sherlock Holmes

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James Bond
Guy from Burn Notice
Jason Bourne
Sherlock Holmes
Toph Bei Fong
Jethro Gibbs

These are just what I can think of right now who have been guessed as both types. Why (prefferably functionwise) is this?

I mean, they're not THAT similar. How can one determine which is correct when they're so easy to confuse?

And another thing. Is common for ISTPs to invent things and develop complex plans? Because that seems rather N, but I hear they do.
 

skylights

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i think that Ti doms can be very J like - and i would begin to guess that maybe the Se/Ti - Ni connection lies in that Ti has an understanding of the system plus Se knows how to bounce in the moment, so TiSe can use its inherent navigation skills to get the same results that Ni goes about in an entirely different kind of way. and Te, especially aux or tert, can be a bit Se like in its enjoyment and seeking of action.

but most of all, i feel like it's a feeling/atmosphere/vibe thing. all of these people are quiet, logical, thrive in action, a little cold on the outside - INTJ is usually a little more "polished" than ISTP, but ISTPs can clean up good too.

as for inventing - i know an ISTP musicians who is a brilliant improviser. that's a type of inventing in and of itself.

assessing how much they stick to plans might be a decent way to differentiate?
 

chris1207

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I find ISTP's and INTJ's to be the least emotionally expressive of all the types. That's just my anecdotal evidence. ISTJ's usually need a sense of being within a group of people that the other IXTX's don't have and INTP's, while cold and calculating, aren't as dense as other IXTX's in understanding the potential of emotions and emotional connections (probably because of Ne.) Ergo ISTP's and INTJ's are the "people-dumb" personality types.
 

KDude

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In real life, these types are easier to differentiate.

Character wise, ISTPs are inventive, but it's more detail oriented and improvisational. And their goals are a little more personal usually.

INJ's Ni has a far more long range view.. a larger conceptual scheme, in the Fe or Te sense. You could say Batman (Bale version) was more of an INJ character. There was even a scene after he hopped on the plane out of China.. how he was telling Alfred that he had gathered what he thought he needed in terms of exploring the criminal underworld, and wanting to go back to Gotham, with the plan of being a symbol. It was like things were clicking with him finally in a Ni/Te sort of way. Same goes for Paul Atreides in the Dune story (but INFJ in that case probably).. lots of ridiculously long range conceptualizing there.

Holmes I think is INTP. Not so different from an ISTP in a way. Maybe all of the stereotypical labels help illustrate some things here: ISTP=Inspector, INTP=analyst, INTJ=architect, etc.. The first two just "sound" more P like in their style.. in how a character like that would behave differently than an "architect" type.

James Bond has been many types (depending on the actor). Except ESFP.. That's Austin Powers.
 

Thalassa

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That's funny, because I've also seen people call Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights an STP because of his propensity for violence, I suppose, although he seems CLEARLY INTJ to me with his quiet, mysterious plotting for lifelong revenge, brilliantly strategized and executed not only to cause maximum pain but also to derive maximum wealth, and no one suspected it at all until it started unfolding...not even Cathy. I also think the way he is decribed in the first few pages of the book paints him as an especially curmdugeonly and twisted INTJ, among other things, but I realized last night that some confusion between ISTP and INTJ could be derived from this passage about Heathcliff as a young boy:

"However, I will say this, he was the quietest child that ever nurse watched over...Cathy and her brother harassed me terribly: he was as uncomplaining as a lamb; though hardness, not gentleness, made him give little trouble.
"

although this following quote from the very next paragraph seems more INTJ, I think

" I wondered often what my master saw to admire so much in the sullen boy; who never, to my recollection, repaid his indulgence by any sign of gratitude. He was not insolent to his benefactor, he was simply insensible;"

There are repeated descriptions about how he spoke infrequently, but when he did speak he spoke the truth, and also about how completely unemotional and calm and collected he was, even after suffering abuse as a child.

Also, the way he cracks emotionally later in life - over Cathy, nothing and no one else - seems more Ni/Fi madness, hysteria, obsession than an inferior Fe. I see no inferior Fe in Heathcliff at all, just blatant Ni/Fi in his hallucinations and mourning for Cathy.

And of course, bad use of inferior Se can be used to explain his violent rages as a grown man.
 

Amargith

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I find ISTP's and INTJ's to be the least emotionally expressive of all the types. That's just my anecdotal evidence. ISTJ's usually need a sense of being within a group of people that the other IXTX's don't have and INTP's, while cold and calculating, aren't as dense as other IXTX's in understanding the potential of emotions and emotional connections (probably because of Ne.) Ergo ISTP's and INTJ's are the "people-dumb" personality types.

I disagree with that..I find that INTPs and ISTJs are often more clueless about people, but I'm guessing that's mostly due to group vs individual dynamics and my own preference to that :)
 

Frank

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My first guess would be that they are both quite a bit more action oriented than other introverts.
 

InvisibleJim

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Well it's something I've seen quite commonly occuring.

INTJ tends to have a complex set of mistypes which are possible.

First the ENTJ can be confused based upon how attentively social the person is if you don't break it down into cognitive functioning.

The INTP and INTJ can be confused if there as a feeling of a lack of fufilling goals and self expectation even though they are cognitively opposite.

The ENFP/INTJ and the INTJ/ISTJ can be confused if one can't break out if they are using Ni/Si or Ni/Ne!

And the most interesting is the ISTP because the Ni-Te gives and Ti-Se gives both types a very introverted personality mode.

In the ISTP they feel the need to actualise plans to affect their environment much like INTJs, they use Introverted Thinking to ponder exactly what they want to do and then get gratification by delivering results through supportive Extroverted Sensing.

The INTJs form an image of how they imagine the world should be via Ni-Fi and use that to influence the environment via extrapolatory thinking (Te).

What is important when considering that the INTJ as an Ni dominant with a J actually feels threatened by the environment (hence the need to judge it) and has 'flexible' internal cognition (Pi). In effect a Je (Te) has an internal Pi (Ni). By contrast the ISTP has a strongly defined and linear internal cognition Ji (Ti) with a weak need to affect the environment for satisfaction and growth (Se).
 

Orangey

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In real life, these types are easier to differentiate.

Character wise, ISTPs are inventive, but it's more detail oriented and improvisational. And their goals are a little more personal usually.

INJ's Ni has a far more long range view.. a larger conceptual scheme, in the Fe or Te sense. You could say Batman (Bale version) was more of an INJ character. There was even a scene after he hopped on the plane out of China.. how he was telling Alfred that he had gathered what he thought he needed in terms of exploring the criminal underworld, and wanting to go back to Gotham, with the plan of being a symbol. It was like things were clicking with him finally in a Ni/Te sort of way. Same goes for Paul Atreides in the Dune story (but INFJ in that case probably).. lots of ridiculously long range conceptualizing there.

Holmes I think is INTP. Not so different from an ISTP in a way. Maybe all of the stereotypical labels help illustrate some things here: ISTP=Inspector, INTP=analyst, INTJ=architect, etc.. The first two just "sound" more P like in their style.. in how a character like that would behave differently than an "architect" type.

James Bond has been many types (depending on the actor). Except ESFP.. That's Austin Powers.

I've never understood why people assign "detail-orientation" to SPs when it is clearly an SJ trait linked to Si. No SP I've ever known, myself included, could reasonably be called a detail-oriented person.

Also, where are you getting those labels from? I've never seen ISTP labeled as inspector. In fact, Keirsey calls ISTJ the inspector. And INTPs are usually the architects while INTJs get mastermind (Keirsey) or analyst (socionics.)

I'm pretty sure a good place to begin answering the question in the OP is the shared communication and interaction style between ISTPs and INTJs. Both are directing and chart-the-course.

In the ISTP they feel the need to actualise plans to affect their environment much like INTJs, they use Introverted Thinking to ponder exactly what they want to do and then get gratification by delivering results through supportive Extroverted Sensing.

The INTJs form an image of how they imagine the world should be via Ni-Fi and use that to influence the environment via extrapolatory thinking (Te).

What is important when considering that the INTJ as an Ni dominant with a J actually feels threatened by the environment (hence the need to judge it) and has 'flexible' internal cognition (Pi). In effect a Je (Te) has an internal Pi (Ni). By contrast the ISTP has a strongly defined and linear internal cognition Ji (Ti) with a weak need to affect the environment for satisfaction and growth (Se).

Agreed.

Toph Bei Fong

Also, I don't even think this is a close call. The fact that someone confused Toph for an INTJ says more about their own ineptitude at recognizing types than it does with the similarity between ISTP and INTJ.
 

InvisibleJim

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I've never understood why people assign "detail-orientation" to SPs when it is clearly an SJ trait linked to Si. No SP I've ever known, myself included, could reasonably be called a detail-oriented person.

The ISTP has a big fat Ti at the front end, as with INTP. This is introverted judgement driving decision making. They like concise detail in their thought process.

For example, I had an ISTP colleague. What used to play a game where I would 'start things off' by drawing some 'common sense' deductions of how a system was behaving and build a model. At the same time he would build it from detailed first principles. Half way through we would swap and compare notes and review then integrate it into one single comprehensive and fast model and come out with something no individual could do in a timely manner that was very much accurate.
 

Orangey

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The ISTP has a big fat Ti at the front end, as with INTP. This is introverted judgement driving decision making. They like concise detail in their thought process.

For example, I had an ISTP colleague. What used to play a game where I would 'start things off' by drawing some 'common sense' deductions of how a system was behaving and build a model. At the same time he would build it from detailed first principles. Half way through we would swap and compare notes and review then integrate it into one single comprehensive and fast model and come out with something no individual could do in a timely manner that was very much accurate.

If this is what is meant by "detail-oriented" then I agree. It's just that I don't think what you've described here really represents the common meaning of the phrase.
 

skylights

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Ergo ISTP's and INTJ's are the "people-dumb" personality types.
I disagree with that..I find that INTPs and ISTJs are often more clueless about people, but I'm guessing that's mostly due to group vs individual dynamics and my own preference to that :)

agree with Satine here, maybe it's just an ENFP thing, but i find ISTPs and INTJs to be better at understanding and accounting for people than INTPs and ISTJs.

The fact that someone confused Toph for an INTJ says more about their own ineptitude at recognizing types than it does with the similarity between ISTP and INTJ.

lol true

The ISTP has a big fat Ti at the front end, as with INTP. This is introverted judgement driving decision making. They like concise detail in their thought process.

there's a big difference between Perceiving detail orientation and Judging, though. with Ji you have a really clear idea of what you personally think - and those ideas, especially in Ti, can be really accurate to the real world - but it's not the same as having a Si database and being detail-consistent.

i mean, no offense, but that is Orangey's type. you'd think s/he'd know. :shrug:
 

KDude

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If this is what is meant by "detail-oriented" then I agree. It's just that I don't think what you've described here really represents the common meaning of the phrase.

Perhaps precision is a good word for Ti. Kind of shows up differently with Ne or Se, of course.

I can agree that SPs aren't detail oriented in the SJ sense though (at least that's my experience too). On the other hand, SPs are detail oriented in a present tense fashion. Aware, alert, jumping into action with physical/tangible opportunities that present themselves, etc.. (if they want). If someone next to me was about to drop a plate, my peripheral vision might catch that and prevent it; if someone threw a frisbee in my direction without warning me, and someone said "Catch" at the last second, I just might catch it. SJs are more about covering details in terms of.. preplanning, prevention, securing, gathering a lot of facts, creating standards.. But they'd probably make good cop characters too, just for spotting things that are off in their environment. Othewise, they're less improvisational, more by the book types. The kind of cop characters that are kind of a thorn in the side to the ISTP cop characters.
 

InvisibleJim

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There's a big difference between Perceiving detail orientation and Judging, though. with Ji you have a really clear idea of what you personally think - and those ideas, especially in Ti, can be really accurate to the real world - but it's not the same as having a Si database and being detail-consistent.

I mean no offence, but I believe you are misinformed. Si is a cognitive smokescreen, it does not act as a database. It instantly perceives current sensory information perceived and compares with past memory. For example: a dominant Si user looks at the moon and in effect instantly sees a face. By comparison a dominant Ni user will look at the moon and see the moon because they link with Se, then make a story up about it.

Cognitive processes is a system to describe how you translate between the senses and the mind. S is sensory processing bias, N is creative thinking bias, T is critical thinking bias, F is instinctive choice bias. Of course, the system is quite fluffy.

I of course would argue that there is no such thing as an 'accurate' or 'detailed' cognitive function. They have certain mental attributes, that is all.

i mean, no offense, but that is Orangey's type. you'd think s/he'd know. :shrug:

Sounds like a small logical fallacy, but I appreciate and value Orangey's and your contributions. Internally when I read this my inner Ni goes into 'rageguy' mode.


Of course it depends on whether you believe Jung as I find 'better' and more believable or the simple proof-less systems put in place by Keirsey et al. Even Myers-Briggs used the Jungian definition and didn't believe the whole brain could be defined as 'cognitive processes'.

The definition I prefer to work from is this:

Si collects data in the present moment and compares it with past experiences. This process sometimes evokes the feelings associated with memory as if the subject were reliving it. Seeking to protect what is familiar, Si draws upon history to form goals and expectations about what will happen in the future.

By comparison with Ti.

Ti seeks precision, such as the exact word to express an idea. It notices the minute distinctions that define the essence of things, then analyzes and classifies them. Ti examines all sides of an issue, looking to solve problems while minimizing effort and risk. It uses models to root out logical inconsistency.

Neither in my mind is more intrinsically 'right' or 'detailed' or whatever crazy absolutes you crazy crazy kids are peddling these days.
 

Mr. Sherlock Holmes

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I'm pretty sure a good place to begin answering the question in the OP is the shared communication and interaction style between ISTPs and INTJs. Both are directing and chart-the-course.

That makes sense. Gibbs was also actually suggested as ISTJ and INFJ who I THINK are the other chart0th-course types.

Also, I don't even think this is a close call. The fact that someone confused Toph for an INTJ says more about their own ineptitude at recognizing types than it does with the similarity between ISTP and INTJ.

I just put it in there because it was an observation and I thought there must have been some reason for it, which may well have been the CtC thing.
 

Mr. Sherlock Holmes

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The definition I prefer to work from is this:



By comparison with Ti.



Neither in my mind is more intrinsically 'right' or 'detailed' or whatever crazy absolutes you crazy crazy kids are peddling these days.

Where did you get the function descriptions from?
 

Orangey

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I mean no offence, but I believe you are misinformed. Si is a cognitive smokescreen, it does not act as a database. It instantly perceives current sensory information perceived and compares with past memory. For example: a dominant Si user looks at the moon and in effect instantly sees a face. By comparison a dominant Ni user will look at the moon and see the moon because they link with Se, then make a story up about it.

Cognitive processes is a system to describe how you translate between the senses and the mind. S is sensory processing bias, N is creative thinking bias, T is critical thinking bias, F is instinctive choice bias. Of course, the system is quite fluffy.

I of course would argue that there is no such thing as an 'accurate' or 'detailed' cognitive function. They have certain mental attributes, that is all.

Well...

Introverted Sensing often involves storing data and information, then comparing and contrasting the current situation with similar ones.

...and...

With introverted Sensing, there is often great attention to detail and getting a clear picture of goals and objectives and what is to happen.

And anyway, I don't know how you can say at once that (1) Si does not function as a database and (2) that Si involves comparing immediate sensory information to memory. There can't very well be a comparison if there was not detailed information stored (like a database) from previous experience, right?

Sounds like a small logical fallacy, but I appreciate and value Orangey's and your contributions. Internally when I read this my inner Ni goes into 'rageguy' mode.

I'm not saying that my perception on the matter is more important or accurate because I'm an ISTP (though I do appreciate the defense, skylights.) I'm just saying that ISTPs are not detail-oriented in the following sense:

The term anal retentive (also anally retentive), commonly abbreviated to anal, is used conversationally to describe a person with such attention to detail that the obsession becomes an annoyance to others, and can be carried out to the detriment of the anal-retentive person. The term derives from Freudian psychoanalysis.

Freud theorized that children who experience conflicts during this period of time may develop "anal" personality traits, namely those associated with a child's efforts at excretory control: orderliness, stubbornness, a compulsion for control,[1] as well as a generalized interest in collecting, possessing, and retaining objects.

Of course it depends on whether you believe Jung as I find 'better' and more believable or the simple proof-less systems put in place by Keirsey et al. Even Myers-Briggs used the Jungian definition and didn't believe the whole brain could be defined as 'cognitive processes'.

The definition I prefer to work from is this:



By comparison with Ti.



Neither in my mind is more intrinsically 'right' or 'detailed' or whatever crazy absolutes you crazy crazy kids are peddling these days.

No one was ever talking about the rightness or wrongness of any particular function. We were talking about detail-orientation and whether it could be applied to ISTPs as a way to distinguish them from INTJs.

That makes sense. Gibbs was also actually suggested as ISTJ and INFJ who I THINK are the other chart0th-course types.

Yeah, that's correct.

I just put it in there because it was an observation and I thought there must have been some reason for it, which may well have been the CtC thing.

Right, and I said that the reason for it is that someone is hideously bad at typing (especially since I remember what was said in the Avatar thread.) It probably does have something to do with the directing/CtC similarity, though. You're right. I just took the opportunity to make a jab at the guy who suggested INTJ for Toph.
 

Mr. Sherlock Holmes

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I disagree with that..I find that INTPs and ISTJs are often more clueless about people, but I'm guessing that's mostly due to group vs individual dynamics and my own preference to that :)

Probably sometimes but not always. I know an INTP who has an F-like ability to understand people.
 

Amargith

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There's always exceptions of course, but I've found that ISTPs with the Se (bodylanguage) tend to have a good read on people and INTJs tend to use NiFi to understand where people are coming from, especially at a later age. I can see though how an INTP, especially an older one would have a keen insight into people with NeTi (human behavior systems) and a splash of Fe (group dynamics), and an ISTJ uses SiTe to absorb the social rule system and store that in their database, as well as tap somewhat into that Fi to understand people somewhat similar to themselves, but I've found them to be better with 'people' and ISTPs and INTJs to be better with individuals.
 
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