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Are females expected to be more SJ than males?

mrcockburn

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My mother was an ESFJ, and just a sample of her many complaints of me when I was growing up:

- You're too assertive, you can't accept that men are in-charge
- You're too messy
- You're heartless
- You don't appreciate traditional practices (funerals, marriage, etc)
- You never care about housework
- I want grandchildren!!!1!!one
- You don't believe in religion
- You're too critical and you think too much
- You're not chatty with people and you aren't warm-hearted enough!
- You need to settle down and stop "playing the field"!
- Why don't you like kittens, puppies and tiny fluffball dogs? ALL women love them! You're the ONLY ONE who doesn't.
- You're EVIL for not liking poetry, flowers and romance films.

I've gotten a lot of these complaints from other SJs in my life (except maybe the grandchildren part, lmao). I've also had SPs meeting me expecting me to be a "traditional female", but then being kind of glad that I'm not, lol.

But my point is, males have a lot more freedom: have fun, get down and dirty, do whatever you want, you can be assertive, you're allowed to be messy.

Agree?

Does the whole SJ-idealized culture apply mainly to women?
 

Amethyst

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I wouldn't say so much now than decades ago, no. There's probably an ounce of that sort of 'traditional' influence here and there, nowadays.

It also depends on who you're associated with. If you're family is more old-fashioned, then be expected to hear more of that...

In all honesty, I know no female in my family who is an SJ...They're all full of P-ness. :D

I think it might be that some SJs expect other women to be more SJ like them...I get that from my dad a lot...but idk, just a thought.
 

Xenon

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Eh, I don't think so. I think women are expected to show Fe and men Te. Being an SJ is valued in both, at least after a certain age. It sounds like your mother criticizes you for not being SFJ enough. STJs aren't exactly known for being submissive, chatty, warm, feminine and uncritical.

My mother has a lot of those same complaints about me. Parents who fit social expectations often have a hard time understanding why their kids don't.
 

rav3n

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You're too critical
If you are, you come by it honestly.

"Mom, enough already? kthxbye."

As for societal expectations of women, your mother's type will explain why it's so important.
 

OrangeAppled

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I also think women are expected to be Fe, namely, xSFJ. Most women, if you buy into those admittedly dubious statistics, are xSFJ, so that's probably why.

I had a conversation with my mom recently in which she asserted that men are a certain way (much of which sounded like xxTPs, not surprising as my dad is ENTP and my step-dad is ISFP, and of course that is not TP, but we all know how Fi can appear "cold" to Fe), and that women are a certain way, which sounded like xSFJs. She said women are warmer, more organized, planners, and think more about people and what needs to be done practically. Men are just lost in thoughts that don't involve people and don't mean to be inconsiderate, and they are of course, messier by nature :rolli:.

So then I said, "What about me? I sound more like the man in this scenario. I'm messy, impractical, not particularly warm, and I'm always lost in my creative thoughts."

And then she says, "Well, that's why people think you're....different." :dry:
 

skylights

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I also think women are expected to be Fe, namely, xSFJ. Most women, if you buy into those admittedly dubious statistics, are xSFJ, so that's probably why.

I had a conversation with my mom recently in which she asserted that men are a certain way (much of which sounded like xxTPs, not surprising as my dad is ENTP and my step-dad is ISFP, and of course that is not TP, but we all know how Fi can appear "cold" to Fe), and that women are a certain way, which sounded like xSFJs. She said women are warmer, more organized, planners, and think more about people and what needs to be done practically. Men are just lost in thoughts that don't involve people and don't mean to be inconsiderate, and they are of course, messier by nature :rolli:.

:yes::yes::yes:

the thing that's funny to me is my mom is a not-very-girly SFJ, so while she's super Fe, she's not like the stereotypical mother, either. she's more laid back and natural. whereas me, i love makeup and heels, but i'm much shittier at Fe and J things.

i also don't really experience all this stuff much with her... let's see...

- You're too assertive, you can't accept that men are in-charge
- You're too messy
- You're heartless
- You don't appreciate traditional practices (funerals, marriage, etc)
- You never care about housework
- I want grandchildren!!!1!!one
- You don't believe in religion
- You're too critical and you think too much
- You're not chatty with people and you aren't warm-hearted enough!
- You need to settle down and stop "playing the field"!
- Why don't you like kittens, puppies and tiny fluffball dogs? ALL women love them! You're the ONLY ONE who doesn't.
- You're EVIL for not liking poetry, flowers and romance films.

most of her real criticism is directed at me not attending to things i should have.

anyway, i think it's even just FJ, too. i have an ENFJ acquaintance (self-typed) who is like THE ideal housewife.

but yeah, i think the "archetypal" couple is ISFJ wife and ESTJ husband (1950s-esque) or ESFJ wife and ESTP husband (more current)
 

Robopop

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Well on the big 5 personality trait tests women score higher than men on conscientiousness, which I think is associated with judger traits in MBTI(especially SJs), women also score higher than men on agreeableness(I associate agreeableness with being informative/people focused interaction style, but it is associated with feeling in MBTI). I think xSFJ traits are typically associated with femininity and xSTP with masculinity in western culture.
 

Eric B

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Well, it's only associated with Feeling in MBTI because they only did the correlations with the four MBTI dichotomies (in which T/F was the closest analogue), and not the later added dichotomies such as direcing/informing and cooperative/pragmatic. I'm sure if they tried those, then you would get big correlations with Agreeableness and Conscientiousness, respectively.
 

rav3n

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But my point is, males have a lot more freedom: have fun, get down and dirty, do whatever you want, you can be assertive, you're allowed to be messy.
Missed this in the opening post the first time around.

This is only applicable if you allow it to be so. People limit themselves, whether they conform to appeal to a greater number of potential partners or whether they fear being ostracised. But if you allow societal expectations to drive you, will you be happy being someone you're not? Caveat again, within reason.
 

animenagai

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Yeah I do, but only a little bit. Note that a lot of things in the original list are more F in nature than SJ.
 

Snuggletron

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My mother was an ESFJ, and just a sample of her many complaints of me when I was growing up:

- You're too assertive, you can't accept that men are in-charge
- You're too messy
- You're heartless
- You don't appreciate traditional practices (funerals, marriage, etc)
- You never care about housework
- I want grandchildren!!!1!!one
- You don't believe in religion
- You're too critical and you think too much
- You're not chatty with people and you aren't warm-hearted enough!
- You need to settle down and stop "playing the field"!
- Why don't you like kittens, puppies and tiny fluffball dogs? ALL women love them! You're the ONLY ONE who doesn't.
- You're EVIL for not liking poetry, flowers and romance films.

that's rough if it's not hyperbole, although kind of hypocritical of her calling you critical... I hope it's not like this on a broad scale with mothers and daughters. Depending on the mother of course, since not all are SFJs, and if they are SFJs, not all of them are that intolerant of differences, if much or any at all. My mom is also ESFJ, and when she's critical of my older sister (ESFP), it's mainly along the lines of her making stupid mistakes and not being responsible.
 

Xenon

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You know, even though I was a sensitive kid in a lot of ways, I don't recall being too bothered by this sort of criticism. Aside from frustration that adults could be so ridiculous. Even as a grade-schooler, I thought most of the items on that list were silly things to criticize someone for. :shrug:
 

SillySapienne

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Yes.

:doh:

Much to my mating game's dismay.

I'm a Huge N with a ridiculous P.

Eh, it could be worse, I guess, at least I'm an E and an F, both of these functions make me appeal to the opposite sex, I guess. I dunno.
 

Coriolis

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But my point is, males have a lot more freedom: have fun, get down and dirty, do whatever you want, you can be assertive, you're allowed to be messy.

Agree?
Males take alot more freedom. It is there for women, too; in far too many cases, they are just too reticent to take it.
 

Thalassa

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I think women are mainly expected to be ISFJ (obedient and helpful) or ISFP (quiet, easy to get along with, but fun) ...otherwise we might be too loud, opinionated, argumentative, intelligent, et al...
 

Mr. Sherlock Holmes

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I hate living in an SJ world. I really hate it. Every time I hear about all these stupid, stupid outdated rules of society that you are supposed to comply to or be outcast, it just makes me want to punch whoever has mentioned it. Here's an example of a conversation (paraphrased) between me and my ISFJ mum (and one that actually shows one of the less stupid traditions).

MUM: We've got to clean up the house.
ME: Why? It'll be dirty in 2 days.
MUM: We have people coming over. Just do a quick clean.
ME: It's (insert irrelevant person who we see all the time). They know our house is messy.
MUM: Well some of us have some level of self respect. I don't want them to know we live in a pigsty.
ME: But it doesn't MATTER what the external appearance of something is AND they've seen that we have a messy house already!
MUM: It's just a matter of dignity. It's a personal thing, to know that my house is clean makes me feel good, like I'm not a slob.
ME: But it's NOT USUALLY CLEAN! You know that, so what are you proving to yourself or anyone?
MUM: (Pointless jibberish) Now come on and help.
ME: Why do I have to help. I think the whole thing is pointless, I didn't put anything here and it doesn't matter to me.
MUM: You're part of the family, it's your duty to help out.
(endless loop)
 

StrawMan

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Males take alot more freedom. It is there for women, too;

Yeah, you gotta fight for your right to party!

It has to be said though, that the things mentioned in the OP are more easily accepted traits and behaviours for men.
 

Thalassa

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Yeah I do, but only a little bit. Note that a lot of things in the original list are more F in nature than SJ.

Not really. I've bolded the ones that actually could strictly qualify as being F.

- You're too assertive, you can't accept that men are in-charge
- You're too messy
- You're heartless
- You don't appreciate traditional practices (funerals, marriage, etc)
- You never care about housework
- I want grandchildren!!!1!!one
- You don't believe in religion
- You're too critical and you think too much
- You're not chatty with people and you aren't warm-hearted enough!
- You need to settle down and stop "playing the field"!
- Why don't you like kittens, puppies and tiny fluffball dogs? ALL women love them! You're the ONLY ONE who doesn't.
- You're EVIL for not liking poetry, flowers and romance films.

That's 3 1/2 "F" statements vs. 8 1/2 statements which really have nothing to do with being a Feeler.

Actually, we might even be able to pull out the kittens and puppies one too. It's debatable; it does appear that most Feelers - even child hating Feelers - love animals, but it might be just as subjective as not wanting to have children. Plenty of NF women consciously elect to either postpone having children or have none at all.
 

OrangeAppled

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Well on the big 5 personality trait tests women score higher than men on conscientiousness, which I think is associated with judger traits in MBTI(especially SJs), women also score higher than men on agreeableness(I associate agreeableness with being informative/people focused interaction style, but it is associated with feeling in MBTI). I think xSFJ traits are typically associated with femininity and xSTP with masculinity in western culture.

I score pretty low on conscientiousness and moderate on agreeableness....I always get RLUEI.

I've seen agreeableness/egocentric explained as agreeable, on one extreme, being concerned with other people most/first (Fe doormat stereotype?); and egocentric, on the other end, is being concerned with your own individuality and freedom (Fi self-absorption stereotype?). Really, either could be an FP woman, depending on how her Fi plays out.
 

underradar

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I read an article once said that it's better to be enfp male than enfp female in work environment because having enfp qualities in men are more appreciative than having that in women. The article also mentioned that enfp men in general do better in term of career advancement than women. I'm sure it's not like this in every cases but I can see how that play out so I think there's some truth to it.
 
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