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Temperament-Style Groupings

stellar renegade

PEST that STEPs on PETS
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I disagree. Our thoughts exist, we are aware of them happening and what they are, and thus we can dissect them. Or extrapolate from what they result in.
Can you give an example?

Shallow as in, they only explain basic surface behavior. They aren't precise about what lies underneath that behavior. I do think that Keirsey is very good for casual users, and as I mentioned what pisses me off is the perceived overlap between it an MBTI (I have the same problem with Socionics), but to me as a type enthusiast, it's just... boring (at least taken by itself). So yeah, I'm an Inventor. Now what?
Now you can figure out careers and schooling that might interest you, the types of lovers you'd get along with best, why you have certain issues that always pop up in relationships, and why everyone should leave you alone about certain attributes of yours, and why you should leave them alone about theirs.

So it's pretty much the same problem I have with the Big 5: It's too simple, too superficial. I could tell you someone's SLOAN type within a minute of meeting them if I ask the right questions, and I'm actually a bit surprised anyone actually needs to take the test.
Well I don't know about the Big 5, but it's not ALWAYS that easy to figure out someone's KTT type. Although, the fact that it's as easy as it is, is what makes it so beautiful. You don't have to deliberate forever on it, and suddenly the world opens up to you in a new way.
 

angelhair45

New member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
307
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ENFP
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7w6
We can't think about our thoughts? I can. I actually think understanding cognitive processes is more beneficial than knowing one's type.

I don't understand the concept of being unable to think about our thoughts. Also science is now backing up more theory behind cognitive processes...
 

Aleksei

Yeah, I can fly.
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The cognitive processes can very much make scientific sense, so long as they're defined properly. Personally I think the accepted cognitive function orders are false dichotomies though -- the only true dichotomies in Jung's cognitive system are introversion/extroversion, which define mutually conflicting attitudes for a given function (precision versus applicability, broad vs deep).
 

KDude

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It sounds like you are vastly uninformed about KTT, which is okay because at first I was, too.

He was introduced through William Sheldon sometime after WW2, and then Isabel Myer's research in 1956. It was afterwards that his own research led him to tie it in to Greek temperment theory. That's his main contribution and distinction. Not the invention of the types themselves.

Also, don't be so hasty to start off a post calling someone "vastly uninformed". Weak. I ignored the rest of your post. All I did was simply suggest looking into MBTI, and you start off with that?
 

stalemate

Post-Humorously
Joined
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I don't understand the concept of being unable to think about our thoughts
I have some trouble with it. Not that I can't think about them, but I have trouble with doing it in a way that tells me anything or is useful. Everything gets all meta. I start trying to analyze the thoughts that actually think about other thoughts. I'm like "ok, when i was thinking about my thoughts i was thinking like this ____" and before long I don't really know how I think. Right now I'm thinking about what it is like to think about thinking about my thoughts. Before long, I don't know how I think about anything.

It's thoughts all the way down. :shrug:
 

stellar renegade

PEST that STEPs on PETS
Joined
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Messages
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We can't think about our thoughts? I can. I actually think understanding cognitive processes is more beneficial than knowing one's type.

I don't understand the concept of being unable to think about our thoughts.
Give me an example of thinking about your thoughts. I'm not even sure what you're talking about.

Also science is now backing up more theory behind cognitive processes...
Really? I'd like to see something on that.

The cognitive processes can very much make scientific sense, so long as they're defined properly. Personally I think the accepted cognitive function orders are false dichotomies though -- the only true dichotomies in Jung's cognitive system are introversion/extroversion, which define mutually conflicting attitudes for a given function (precision versus applicability, broad vs deep).
And see, I think that's because he was so mystical and perceived a huge interior world to explore. But then, isn't he really thinking about abstraction...? Since it's inside, apart from the world of concrete objects. That's what really started confusing me.

He was introduced through William Sheldon sometime after WW2, and then Isabel Myer's research in 1956. It was afterwards that his own research led him to tie it in to Greek temperment theory. That's his main contribution and distinction. Not the invention of the types themselves.
Well, well!

I know there's an author he read during WWII, but I guess it's not Sheldon. I was trying to search for it on the Keirsey forum since I read something about it there but can't find it. Anywho, yeah I was thinking he got into Greek and 20th century temperament theory after Myers, but that doesn't really matter, because it still doesn't mean he got into cognitive theories. I've never read anything about that and I talk to his son all the time.

Also, don't be so hasty to start off a post calling someone "vastly uninformed". Weak. I ignored the rest of your post. All I did was simply suggest looking into MBTI, and you start off with that?
Well, you said he based his theories off of cognitive psychology. From all appearances he based his thinking on her descriptions of behavior. I guess it's possible that you think that MBTI is fully cognitive. Or if you mean that because Myers based her work on Jung, that Keirsey theory ultimately relies on cognitive theories, you could've said that.

But apparently we were both wrong about each other's ignorance. You still think I don't know much about MBTI because apparently you were too offended to read further down.
 

KDude

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Nah man, I wasn't calling you ignorant at all. In your own words, you appeared to be ambivalent to the definition of "Ti". Fair enough. I just suggested looking more into MBTI to expand on Keirsey. It adds more to understanding than subtracting anything. At least in my opinion.

Yeah, I was offended. I'm over it. I just didn't like your wording. I'll read your post over again.
 

stellar renegade

PEST that STEPs on PETS
Joined
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Messages
1,446
MBTI Type
ESTP
Nah man, I wasn't calling you ignorant at all. In your own words, you appeared to be ambivalent to the definition of "Ti". Fair enough. I just suggested looking more into MBTI to expand on Keirsey. It adds more to understanding than subtracting anything. At least in my opinion.
Well I didn't mean that you called me "ignorant" but that wasn't my intent either. I was just saying that I didn't think you knew what you were talking about, not that you're stupid or uneducated. Sorry for the strong wording.

The reason I say that I don't know about "Ti" is because it just stopped making sense after awhile. I don't really see much sense in it - even if I grasp it for a few seconds, it escapes my mind after I start thinking about something else.

Yeah, I was offended. I'm over it. I just didn't like your wording. I'll read your post over again.
Aiight man, cool. By the way I found that post I was talking about. The book Dr. Keirsey read during WWII that got him into psychology was Man the Unknown by Alexis Carrel. He's forgotten all about what it said now, but it was just a tipping point for him. You can read the book here.
 

KDude

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Errr.. <quick hug>

Ahem..

I can see why all of the function definitions (and/or combinations) can be confusing. This is where I think Keirsey helps for me.. as an anchor to keep me from overanalyzing and retyping myself out of "temperment". It's helpful for me to look back into MBTI from that standpoint though.
 

Aleksei

Yeah, I can fly.
Joined
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Messages
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And see, I think that's because he was so mystical and perceived a huge interior world to explore. But then, isn't he really thinking about abstraction...? Since it's inside, apart from the world of concrete objects. That's what really started confusing me.
That's understandable. Jung's system is pretty much the ultimate in mystical NF psychobabble (Jung himself was probably INFP). Takes a somewhat abstract mind to understand what he was talking about.
 

angelhair45

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ENFP
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Give me an example of thinking about your thoughts. I'm not even sure what you're talking about.

How does one give an example? Basically I am aware of my thoughts, how I think, the ways I think, the methods in which I think, and how I am thinking them. I am AWARE of my thought processes, how they work, and the specifice thoughts that I am thinking. I'm not sure how to give an example? You think about your thoughts by being aware of them first...

Am I totally missing something?
 

Aleksei

Yeah, I can fly.
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Concrete method: I'm analyzing something (say, time-travel paradoxes). I memorize and make note of what my stream of consciousness is like, and I start dissecting exactly what traits are shown in my thinking. Freewriting is a good way to do that.
 

stellar renegade

PEST that STEPs on PETS
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How does one give an example? Basically I am aware of my thoughts, how I think, the ways I think, the methods in which I think, and how I am thinking them. I am AWARE of my thought processes, how they work, and the specifice thoughts that I am thinking. I'm not sure how to give an example? You think about your thoughts by being aware of them first...

Am I totally missing something?
I guess it works for you, then.

Concrete method: I'm analyzing something (say, time-travel paradoxes). I memorize and make note of what my stream of consciousness is like, and I start dissecting exactly what traits are shown in my thinking. Freewriting is a good way to do that.
Well true, but then you're thinking about thoughts that you had a few moments ago, which in order to truly reflect requires a different state of mind. (Which doesn't mean that you're not thinking about your thoughts, of course.) Putting it down on paper makes it observable action, so it becomes more or less speech.

The only reason Keirsey talks about speech instead of thinking is that 'thinking' can't be nailed down, not until someone says something. And the only problem with thinking about your own thoughts is that it's a subjective process. You're thinking about yourself on your own terms, and there's no objective input being given because no one else can just "see" your thoughts until you speak them.

You can easily mislead yourself, thus why everyone gets confused about their own type.
 

stalemate

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I caught myself doing the NF class/genre/type thing in a meeting today. We had a list of like 250 apps, some of which can be replaced by a new technology, some of which can't, we just don't know which yet because there is not 1 single person that knows all the apps and that understands the new technology.

It was suggested that we just go through them one at a time and decide if they can be replaced or not.

I kept saying we should just go through them one at a time and put them into a general bucket of what kind of pattern they fit, then we can take all the patterns and decide which ones fit into the new tech and which ones don't. Once we know that, we can just throw a blanket over all the apps that fit a specific pattern and say "in" or "out" for rearchitecture/replacement.

I think some of my coworkers thought I was from another planet. :shrug:
 

stellar renegade

PEST that STEPs on PETS
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I caught myself doing the NF class/genre/type thing in a meeting today...

I kept saying we should just go through them one at a time and put them into a general bucket of what kind of pattern they fit, then we can take all the patterns and decide which ones fit into the new tech and which ones don't. Once we know that, we can just throw a blanket over all the apps that fit a specific pattern and say "in" or "out" for rearchitecture/replacement.

I think some of my coworkers thought I was from another planet. :shrug:
hahaha, nice. So, were you talking about patterns of code, or kinds of apps? Is the issue with the new technology one of coding?
 

stalemate

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hahaha, nice. So, were you talking about patterns of code, or kinds of apps? Is the issue with the new technology one of coding?
Basically kind of apps. Here is an example... we have a lot of applications that are supported by vendors. But, sometimes we need data from Vendor App A to get into Vendor App B even though these two apps are not aware of each other. Over time, we have written a lot of applications to glue two vendor apps together by propagating data between them. It is a mess and no one knows where all the hooks are.

So you might have:
Vendor App A -> In-House App C -> Vendor App B

And if Vendor App B stops getting the data it needs, the person investigating this problem may not even know that In-House App C exists, much less where to look for it or how to troubleshoot it.

This is just one basic example. There could be 50 apps that fit the basic pattern of App C above, and there are other patterns too.

We have purchased some data propagation and service mediation tools that could make some of these apps completely obsolete and for others it could just move the definitions of the interfaces into a common place so that if something is broken you aren't trying to pull something out of thin air to find the break. The task now is figuring out which apps can be replaced, removed, or redesigned with the new tools.
 

stellar renegade

PEST that STEPs on PETS
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That definitely sounds like a coding issue. Why can't the experts for each app get with the people who know the new technology and bang their heads together? Then you could just knock it out a few pieces at a time...
 

stalemate

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There are no experts for each app. They were written one at a time over the years and the team responsible is mostly gone. We just have them all sitting in a repository and a few people know one or two of them but there are 250 ish total.
 
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