J & P

[prplchknz]

This discussion was raised before in the J/P Myth thread. J/P has no bearing on cleanliness.

I'm a bit confused by your response, was that directed at me or were you just using my reply as an example?

 

[substitute]

Yeah I'm with you targo, I've talked about it on my blog, about the fact that with an xNTJ in my life, everything about my life tends to be better, more productive, and I become positive in every sense: as a person, in my mood, in my impact on the external world, and everything generally. Without one, I'm like an aimless drifter and just get myself into trouble, and eventually become depressed because of the clash between my need to feel useful, and my lack of ability to motivate and discipline myself into doing the things that would lead to my feeling useful!!

I've never really had to stick to schedules, having been self-employed in a job where, so long as things are done by a deadline, I can choose when to work on them and how etc. However, when staying in monasteries (which I do frequently), I find I respond to the routine there very well, it seems to really 'make' me.

I don't think being a P is as much about not needing structure or organization, as being not naturally inclined to seek or create it. The same can be true in reverse: being a J isn't about not needing to relax, chill out and go with the flow, but more about not being naturally inclined to do so.

Pe/Ji types (extraverted perceiving/introverted judging) by definition specialize in plugging into the external environment and going with it, making your own 'sense' of it as you go. You can't really do that at the same time as its opposite of Pi/Je, or plugging into your internal environment to look for what you know already and applying it to 'control' the external world in some way.

For Pi/Je types, non-intervention and 'waiting and seeing' comes more naturally, and that policy is applied to the self as much as to the external world.

 

["?"]

I'm a bit confused by your response, was that directed at me or were you just using my reply as an example?

Actually both, not in a negative way because I think we both agree. It's just that many times we equate J with cleanliness and P with messiness.

John Beebe and others assert from the reference that the J/P dichotomy really does not pertain to environmental orderliness, only whether we prefer external structure. As one example was given, the most orderly person that the author knew was her ISTP father. It's another reason that I think we tend to confuse (or the authors of test simply misinterpret) NJ/SP issues on assessments. The article I referred to gives some enlightenment on many misperceptions of two dichotomies such as:

The first stereotype is the notion that J's are always on time, and P's are always late. IT'S NOT TRUE!

Two J's live together in my household, and we're often late for appointments. In fact, the standing joke around here is that "J" stands for "Just One More Thing!" -- meaning we invariably try to accomplish one additional thing before we charge out the door. We do not have a reputation for reliably being on time (ask my sister!).

In contrast, I've met P's who arrive at the airport several hours ahead of their flights, and arrive well in advance of any meetings. (Interestingly, one P admitted to me that he arrived early as a way of compensation for an acknowledged tendency to be late. Viva le compensation!)

The point is, if you're using a stopwatch to distinguish P and J, you are wasting your time.

Another myth is about Js being tidy and Ps being messy. Whoa again!

The messiest house I've ever seen in my life belonged to an ESFJ. It looked like a garage sale gone mad -- with a layer of dust everywhere to boot! The "J" house I live in with my husband looks like a tornado went through it last week.

Do you know who's probably the tidiest person I know? My ISTP dad, of course. (Notice the last letter, willya?) I also spent 8 years living with an ENFP -- and he would win the neatness award long before I would even be eligible. So saying J's are tidy and P's are messy is FALSE!

Then there's the added problem of people who try to figure out whether they are J or P based on these same criteria! Well, as the Mafiosos say, "fuhgettabouttit!"

Linda Berens has said that NJ often looks like P. And boy is that ever true in my NJ household. What's interesting is that my husband and I score equally on any questions of early-starting and pressure-prompted -- because we do both! Since the two of us possess the Chart-the-Course interaction style, we tend to put just enough energy into an event early on in the process to figure out what must be done to arrive at the goal point. But then we forget about the whole matter until we're "pressure-prompted" to actually set the wheels in motion for the event. Invariably, we cut the margin too finely, and quality of life can be rather questionable until the event has ended.

Another point that was added to the article at a later date corroborates my requesting people who continue to group S and Ns together. The article goes on to say:

Dr. Berens says that if we spend too much time talking about J, before long we're really talking about SJ (extreme SJ!)... and if we spend too much time talking about P, we're really talking about NP (extreme NP!). So it's not good to single out and focus on J/P alone for drawing lots of Type conclusions.

Finally, again as I have attempted to convey to J/P debates is:

The only generalization I'm comfortable with about J/P differences is that J's like to approach the world in the style of an orderly marching band -- with structure; they feel better following a plan; they like closure and want things completed. P's like to approach the world in the style of a jazz band -- spontaneous, flexible, preferring to keep their options open. And that's as specific about J/P as I'm willing to get!

Whenever I see conversation deteriorate to the point where J and P are the only letters I'm hearing, then I know the conversation isn't about type theory anymore -- it's about bias and stereotype, or it's being conflated with functions -- and that means there's not enough knowledge about type theory overall to keep the conversation going properly. I personally don't have patience for that, and I believe it's ignorant and inappropriate.

The bottom line is that you can't point at that last letter and make a boatload of assumptions about it -- because whatever you assume will likely prove untrue for some portion of Earth's population. So don't do it.

 

[nightning]

I'm wouldn't say that a J needs a P and P needs a J... but I do find that I get along with Ps easier than Js. I'm a borderline J though, and I flex between the divide. Also my parents are quite the SJs... so perhaps I grew up disliking too much control. Anyways, in general, I feel happier interacting with a not so stiff J or simply a P.

It has little to do with tidiness/orderliness or the like... It's more like I can relax in the company of a P more and not have to worry so much about everything. I'm a tense person to begin with. Js are usually more formal.

 

[prplchknz]

Yeah, I thought I was agreeing with you that's one of the reason why I was confused. I prefer an internal structure over an external, I think that's because I learned from a young age that their is very little I can do to actually control the outerworld but the innerworld is different.Of course I'm always changing my internal structure to adapt to what's going on in the world.

 

["?"]

I don't think being a P is as much about not needing structure or organization, as being not naturally inclined to seek or create it. The same can be true in reverse: being a J isn't about not needing to relax, chill out and go with the flow, but more about not being naturally inclined to do so.

You're absolutely right Sub. P's simply prefer not to be hogtied to too much structure, howeve SP types like routine therefore want some symbolence of structure. I think that this is more evident in introverted SP types since ESPs are going to be more inclined to be self-employed if at all possible, similar to ENPs.

 

[INTJMom]

This discussion was raised before in the J/P Myth thread. J/P has no bearing on cleanliness.

NO bearing?
Then what does?

 

[substitute]

I dunno about no bearing, but here's a contrast: me the hardcore P, always clean and neat and punctual... and my friend the hardcore ISTJ (yes we've both been tested professionally), who people say will be late to his own funeral, and who lives in a state of squalor hitherto only known in student based sitcoms and movies from the 70's!!

I dunno about cleanliness but if being a J inclines you more towards organization, then obviously a tidy house/room/office is more organized and easier to keep organized, so it's easier for you to be organized in that environment.

Although the ISTJ is messy and filthy, he does know where everything is and he's SUPER anal about anything being touched or moved, so this points to his place being a highly organized mess!

 

[quietgirl]

Although the ISTJ is messy and filthy, he does know where everything is and he's SUPER anal about anything being touched or moved, so this points to his place being a highly organized mess!

I can relate. I stand by the statement that I am an organized mess!!

 

[wedekit]

Well, sorry if this sounds like false stereotyping, but I do find that the friends I enjoy being around the most are indeed P's, while I have tested as a strong J. It's nice to help them plan a little ahead in their life, and in turn they teach me how to sometimes leave room for spontaneity.

 

[substitute]

I can relate. I stand by the statement that I am an organized mess!!

Yeah? I'm the total opposite. My place is completely chaotic tidiness!

It's hygeinic, and the surfaces are clear. But that's because things are put up on shelves and away in closets - randomly and completely haphazardly. My friends would vote me "person least likely to have an alphabetized music collection" without hesitation. My music collection actually consists of a bunch of written-on blank CD's that are stuffed completely messily into a closet. I have to look through them all to find what I want, but I don't really care... cos I have them on the PC hard drive, mostly - again, not organized into neat folders or anything, but just randomly - but media player alphabetizes them all for me!

 

["?"]

NO bearing?
Then what does?

I think that is the point, there is no bearing when it comes to type, although I do recall reading somewhere that types will clean for different reasons.

 

["?"]

I dunno about no bearing, but here's a contrast: me the hardcore P, always clean and neat and punctual... and my friend the hardcore ISTJ (yes we've both been tested professionally), who people say will be late to his own funeral, and who lives in a state of squalor hitherto only known in student based sitcoms and movies from the 70's!!

I dunno about cleanliness but if being a J inclines you more towards organization, then obviously a tidy house/room/office is more organized and easier to keep organized, so it's easier for you to be organized in that environment.

Although the ISTJ is messy and filthy, he does know where everything is and he's SUPER anal about anything being touched or moved, so this points to his place being a highly organized mess!

You just made the argument Sub, J/P has no bearing. I will say that Js may have a propensity to sustain a clean area where Ps may be sporadic. That's as far as I would go with the comparison.