Ni-Fi Loops

[highlander]

I've heard this mentioned a bunch. Two questions:
1. What it it like when you experience this?
2. How is it experienced by others who interact with you?

 

[Poki]

Does anyone experience these Ni Fi loops as pessimism. I get the impression that Ni is full of pessimism by nature.

 

[Craft]

1. I don't understand what "loops" are. Can anyone direct me to an elaboration?

Ni and Fi...Introversion Value Abstraction. Sounds like a fantasy land without Te.

 

[Goosebump]

I'd also like to know what loop is.

When my Fi is having trouble with certain thoughts or views, I would take time to think about them and rely on Ni to shed some light on the issues, hoping that it would allow me to see them in another way that appeals to Fi better.

 

[Poki]

Internal loops are when you are having internal problems and cant get out of it without external help/resources. IMO depression is an example of a loop. But that is just one of many loops.

 

[Fidelia]

INFPs have Fi-Si loops. Fi brings up an issue, Si answers it, which brings out another Fi reaction and so on. You get stuck and can't break the cycle or come up with a solution. I think it might be sparked by something happening which reminds them of a past event or evokes bad feelings from the past, then they start brooding, which creates more of those feelings, then they delve further into what happened before and it's like a feedback loop, amplifying the original emotion. (Don't know if I exactly explained it right for them. They have a whole thread on it in the NF section though).

For INFJs, they have a Ni-Ti loop. So for example, when I try to write out a paper that I feel very involved with the content of I look at all the possibilities. Then I try to structure them. My Ni goes back and checks over what Ti did and comes up with a bunch more possibilities I may have missed, which then requires a new structure. I could do that forever and it's almost impossible without outside help to find a way to break out of it. Or in a relationship I may collect several possibilities for why someone is acting the way they are, along with examples of past behaviour. I try to organize it into some hypothesis that makes sense. Then something else happens or I remember something I hadn't considered, so I wait a little longer and come up with something new. This is a problem in cases where someone is behaving badly. While I am gathering information and trying out new hypothesese, I'm letting time go by in which those patterns should be addressed but I am not certain enough of my conclusions to act.

Usually each type tends to loop between their dominant and their tertiary function. In INTJs, that would be Ni and Fi.

 

[InvisibleJim]

I've heard this mentioned a bunch. Two questions:
1. What it it like when you experience this?
2. How is it experienced by others who interact with you?

1. As with all looping one does not think 'oh I'm in a bizarre loop' one just goes along with it because you aren't aware it is happening. Generally it is triggered when Ni finds the outer world so offensive against its silent sensibilities that it strongly turns to Fi to find internal validation against external aberration. As Ni doesn't want to know what Te thinks because it is so abhorrent it is short circuited. It becomes pessimistic, seeing the outside world as an aggressor as Fi strongly confirms Ni's perception of an overpowering outer world imposing itself on the psyche. Expect ranting as I lose the ability to influence and direct externally using Te.

2. Generally they find that I can be quite willing to totally disregard anything they say and I lose control over my mannerisms.

If they are experienced with people who do this they put it down to major anxiety and nerves (which it is) making me jumpy and agitated.

If they aren't they view me as being an uncompromising pompous ass and overly emotional. Ni-Fi is one of the few times you see the INTJ wear their hearts on their sleeves. They find I project my beliefs onto others as it makes others more human in my eyes and thus less threatening despite my need to rant at it regardless.

Of course no-one ever talks about the good points of Ni-Fi. It's like being on a externally triggered trip and sometimes it is triggered for very positive reasons rather than negative.

Fi is a very strong function and can seem very alluring over trying to understand why the external world is why it is. Especially as Ni has such a strong fixation with icons, ideas and ways of doing things and the intertia of the past..

 

[Andy]

I'd also like to know what loop is.

When my Fi is having trouble with certain thoughts or views, I would take time to think about them and rely on Ni to shed some light on the issues, hoping that it would allow me to see them in another way that appeals to Fi better.

The term most commonly gets used around here to describe the interaction between any two functions. I don't think it's been rigorously defined, so don't worry about it too much.

Any given function loop can show itself in more than one way, as is generally true of most things in function theory. A primary-tertiary loop in a introvert tends to be characterised by hesitancy, or other unwillingness to take action. This is largely because of the lack of extroversion in the loop. The exact functions in the loop shape the reasons/excuses for this state.

In an INTJs Ni-Fi loop it is the Fi that is the weak partner. The INTJ can throw up quite a number of possible futures they can pursue, but has trouble deciding which they actually want. Thus the pause and ponder the question excessively.

In answer to Poki's question, I suspect that depression would fit this bill, but is more to do with the weak Fi again, which makes it hard to sort through the emotions.

 

[skylights]

i think it's really interesting, the idea of depression perhaps sometimes being related to the weaker side of an internal loop giving out. for an ENFP the introverted loop is Fi-Si, as fidelia explained well, and for us the weak partner is Si. i would tend to agree that when i get wrapped up in how-things-were-and-how-great-it-was (Fi-Si looping), it leads to thoughts and behavior that could easily correlate with or turn into depression, especially when the emphasis is the factors in the past that made it great (Si) and not the feelings (Fi). it can lead to despair that things are that way no longer and questioning how they could ever be again. the key to breaking out of it, of course, is getting Ne and Te's butts back in gear (seeking out hugs from someone with Fe is nice too ) - and Fi-Si looping can be very useful in reestablishing things that you enjoyed and appropriately integrating traditional elements and meaning into new things. it is simply, like any other loop, dangerous when it gets out of balance and takes over.

i am curious to hear more about Ni-Fi looping. i imagine it's taken place in my mind at some point, but i wonder when. perhaps in seeing the self in new ways?

 

[highlander]

i think it's really interesting, the idea of depression perhaps sometimes being related to the weaker side of an internal loop giving out. for an ENFP the introverted loop is Fi-Si, as fidelia explained well, and for us the weak partner is Si. i would tend to agree that when i get wrapped up in how-things-were-and-how-great-it-was (Fi-Si looping), it leads to thoughts and behavior that could easily correlate with or turn into depression, especially when the emphasis is the factors in the past that made it great (Si) and not the feelings (Fi). it can lead to despair that things are that way no longer and questioning how they could ever be again. the key to breaking out of it, of course, is getting Ne and Te's butts back in gear (seeking out hugs from someone with Fe is nice too ) - and Fi-Si looping can be very useful in reestablishing things that you enjoyed and appropriately integrating traditional elements and meaning into new things. it is simply, like any other loop, dangerous when it gets out of balance and takes over.

i am curious to hear more about Ni-Fi looping. i imagine it's taken place in my mind at some point, but i wonder when. perhaps in seeing the self in new ways?

I think the loops occur with your dominant and tertiary. So for an ENFP, it would be an Ne-Te loop?

 

[highlander]

Somehow I missed this thread.

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...dom-tertiary-loops-personality-disorders.html

 

[skylights]

I think the loops occur with your dominant and tertiary. So for an ENFP, it would be an Ne-Te loop?

of course, primarily. and can i ever tell you about running away with a Ne-Te theory. but no reason why other loops shouldn't take place too - we should theoretically each have one primary loop, extraverted for Es and introverted for Is, and then one secondary - introverted for Es and extraverted for Is.

like INTP - Ti-Si and Ne-Fe, etc.

 

[highlander]

This description seems like a narrow or extreme description of the loop.

"ISFP/INTJ: Fi/Ni or Ni/Fi--Paranoid Personality Disorder. These types are your typical conspiracy theorists; they cling deeply to their personal values and can find a conspiracy to assault or attack those values everywhere they look. Chronically distrustful of others' intentions for no legitimate reason, these types are certain they are the only ones who really know "the truth." The inferior function, Te or Se, can sometimes lead to an unconscious desire to attract the attention of or lead/organize others in efforts to expose the nefarious conspiracies they invariably see everywhere. If Te/Se were doing its job, these types would be able to look around them and observe empirical evidence that most of their theories are probably not reflected in reality, but as they rely almost entirely on internal validation, Ni will go to any lengths to justify Fi's emotion-based suspicions. (I mentioned Dale Gribble from King of the Hill in a previous article--he's a perfect example.) "

From Sim's posting on PersonalityCafe in the above link.

 

[InvisibleJim]

of course, primarily. and can i ever tell you about running away with a Ne-Te theory. but no reason why other loops shouldn't take place too - we should theoretically each have one primary loop, extraverted for Es and introverted for Is, and then one secondary - introverted for Es and extraverted for Is.

like INTP - Ti-Si and Ne-Fe, etc.

Because the dominant function always leads. The relief and support functions switch. You rarely use your other functions.

 

[Eric B]

Does anyone experience these Ni Fi loops as pessimism. I get the impression that Ni is full of pessimism by nature.

1. I don't understand what "loops" are. Can anyone direct me to an elaboration?

Basically, what is also known as one's itroverted or extraverted "face"; a tandem of the two functions sharing the same attitude, rather than the dom/aux. or dom/inferior. Myers-Briggs Personality Types Development Dynamics: Myers, Briggs & Carl Jung

I believe this extends to the shadows as well, so I can certainly attest to an Ni-Fi loop, and it usually is quite negative (extremely pessimistic) for me.

 

[Poki]

Basically, what is also known as one's itroverted or extraverted "face"; a tandem of the two functions sharing the same attitude, rather than the dom/aux. or dom/inferior. Myers-Briggs Personality Types Development Dynamics: Myers, Briggs & Carl Jung

I believe this extends to the shadows as well, so I can certainly attest to an Ni-Fi loop, and it usually is quite negative (extremely pessimistic) for me.

Being Ni I live in pessimism quite a bit. It is heavily tied to Se as well and pulling in what is in front of us. I can recognize this and relate to INTJs. They tend to express their pessimism more then me, I just keep pushing forward supressing the Fi portion. When Fi wins out is when they get stuck in an Ni-Fi loop. You just gotta keep pushing forward at these times.

edit: I dont use Fi for energy though so its not that hard for me to push back Fi.

 

[skylights]

Because the dominant function always leads. The relief and support functions switch. You rarely use your other functions.

eh, i disagree. i think we use all the functions.

 

[InvisibleJim]

eh, i disagree. i think we use all the functions.

I guess you missed 'rarely'? Of course that isn't an adequate description for something that is firing but in a far lower level than the other functions. But it is less preferred by definition of MBTI being a system based upon cognitive preference.

The reason the primary<->tertiary loop should be apparent to the user is precisely because of cognitive preference.

 

[skylights]

I guess you missed 'rarely'? Of course that isn't an adequate description for something that is firing but in a far lower level than the other functions. But it is less preferred by definition of MBTI being a system based upon cognitive preference.

The reason the primary<->tertiary loop should be apparent to the user is precisely because of cognitive preference.

ah, okay. i totally agree with you on this.

i did not miss rarely, but it did sound like you were implying we only use the rest of our functions sometimes, instead of them running all together but some at much lower levels than others.

and yeah, the dom-tert loop is definitely more obvious, but i would still suspect that we can get caught in any kind of loop - probably not a 6-8 loop, of course, but if there's an environment that in particular stimulates other functions, or if we're ignoring either our introverted or extraverted functions for whatever reason, i think it's easy enough for the aux-inf loop to emerge, and quite possibly others as well.

 

[Chloe]

of course, primarily. and can i ever tell you about running away with a Ne-Te theory. but no reason why other loops shouldn't take place too - we should theoretically each have one primary loop, extraverted for Es and introverted for Is, and then one secondary - introverted for Es and extraverted for Is.

like INTP - Ti-Si and Ne-Fe, etc.

from what i know loop theory is based on "person will try to avoid less prefered orientation", so as an E, you fall in Ne-Te loop. BUT what if your Introversion is still more prefered than, ex. [extraverted] thinking? why not Fi-Si loop then instead of Ne-Te...
just another alternative