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How to manipulate people via their functions.

Chloe

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May 1, 2009
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2,196
Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm that way too but I just don't understand such rigid thinking and readiness to dictate what's "right" and what's "wrong" on a moral basis from an enfp.

To not be open to the idea that maybe it's not all bad intentions all the time, that's the opposite of flexibility. . ..

Yes, agree, I think people do it (esp Fi's) out of fear, over protecting their beliefs so they go to extremes. Clinging to them. Also, it's more common among younger people. :)
 

Wonkavision

Retired Member
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Jan 14, 2009
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1,154
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7w8
Yes, agree, I think people do it (esp Fi's) out of fear, over protecting their beliefs so they go to extremes. Clinging to them. Also, it's more common among younger people. :)

Well.....

It could also be a product of maturity--i.e. developing Fi, clearer values, etc.

I'll have to read previous posts in the thread to see exactly what you guys are talking about.
 

Wonkavision

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I cannot believe three fellow ENFPs just said that manipulation is not always bad.

Well, I'm probably gonna risk my ENFP cred, but I tend to think manipulation is bad.

It depends how strictly you're defining manipulation though.

There are many subtle levels of manipulation and it's possible that some are OK, such as "playful" manipulation or something, but, in general, I don't think it's a good thing.

I have realized how manipulative I can be, and I'm kind of working on being more straightforward.

Just my own personal goal, not a rule for others.


But I'm glad an INFJ is here to remind us that it is and to point out the right way to go.

Heh heh. :D

This reminds me of something I read somewhere---that INFJs are the only ones who can talk an ENFP out of their "life of crime."
 

Chloe

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Well.....

It could also be a product of maturity--i.e. developing Fi, clearer values, etc.

I'll have to read previous posts in the thread to see exactly what you guys are talking about.

I was talking more in general, not in this case with sytpg which i didnt read all to be sure.

and was talking about black and white thinking... when it's obvious...

it'd hard to put a line even what's black and white thinking, so i stay away from going into all that.. because, what Vamp said, Sytpg was saying how he wouldnt kiss anyone who he doesnt love or something like that... I can say it's black and white thinking but again that's from my POV, which is not absolute

in other words: thinking something is black and white thinking can be black and white thinking per se. :solidarity:
 

Goosebump

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Aug 25, 2010
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I find this whole topic quite troubling. As I always thought manipulation is a form of deceit used to take advantage of people.:huh:

I would like to know what you guys consider as an acceptable form of manipulation because this is quite puzzling to me.
 

Wonkavision

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Just read the Ti thread and watch manipulation at work. :doh:

Come on, Metaphor.

As soon as I saw your name in this thread, I knew you had posted something like this.

It's not manipulation.

The guy really has grown on me, and I want to bury the hatchet.
 

rav3n

.
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Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
Come on, Metaphor.

As soon as I saw your name in this thread, I knew you had posted something like this.

It's not manipulation.

The guy really has grown on me, and I want to bury the hatchet.
Okay, I believe you.

So you understand, I have a real thing about people being picked on. This is my burden to bear.
 

stalemate

Post-Humorously
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Oh I kind of remember where I was going earlier when I was asking about the definition of manipulation.

I pretty much expected people to think manipulation=bad just as word connotation or whatever, so I expected each person to define it as whatever was just past the level of manipulation that they personally see as acceptable. Obviously I was wrong because some people are defining it loosely and saying some forms are ok.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
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Dec 3, 2008
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INTJ
You [nice people] are doing it again, making up definitions to misunderstand something easy. Manipulation is the covert reduction or removal of another person's ability to choose to walk away. Consciously manipulating is worse than unconsciously manipulating, but to say that there are times when manipulation is okay, you'll need to say not only that there are times when it's better for people not to make their own choices but that at those times it is appropriate and important to hide your role in how little choice they have now.

The exceptionally fine distinction to be drawn between manipulation and influence (for adults) turns on whether or not the other person continues to be able to exercise their right to say no.

Or so I presume.
 

Goosebump

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You [nice people] are doing it again, making up definitions to misunderstand something easy. Manipulation is the covert reduction or removal of another person's ability to choose to walk away. Consciously manipulating is worse than unconsciously manipulating, but to say that there are times when manipulation is okay, you'll need to say not only that there are times when it's better for people not to make their own choices but that at those times it is appropriate and important to hide your role in how little choice they have now.

The exceptionally fine distinction to be drawn between manipulation and influence (for adults) turns on whether or not the other person continues to be able to exercise their right to say no.

Or so I presume.

I talked to a friend about this and she cleared up something for me. I agree it's the definition that causes people to have different understanding of the concept. I've been surrounded by materials that usually emphasize the importance of not manipulating people, but guiding them there to what you want.
Then I realize that diplomacy is a form of manipulation, as you have to choose your words and action carefully so that the other won't directly turn you down. In that way, I guess whether manipulation is acceptable varies on the person and the method.
I appreciate that you point out the distinction on whether the person still have a choice to choose what they want.

eh, i can't define harm, to some extent. but i really think most humans have a general sense of knowing when they are being deliberately cruel to another person. and if they don't know, then it really isn't deliberate, so the point becomes moot anyway.

This makes more sense to me. I was not sure if I agree. As how do you know what would be cruel to the person, even if you know them really well. But then I thought about how direct forwardness sometimes also hurts the person. So I guess the situation and your knowledge of the person call for the which method to use. Whether to be forward and tell it like it is or to manipulate.
lol the word still has a negative connotation to me but for the time, I guess it's not that bad because it is necessary sometimes.

Thanks skylights and Kalach. :)
 

Salomé

meh
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Sep 25, 2008
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10,527
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It is always a bad thing

Manipulation is mostly needed when one's actual position is too weak to be convincing, then it must be artificially constructed.

How can you define harm though? And who am I to know what is best to the other person?

I sure hope my brother, for example, isn't manipulating me left and right to do make me do what HE thinks it is right for me. Nevermind dishonesty, why should I trust his judgement over mine??

You [nice people] are doing it again, making up definitions to misunderstand something easy. Manipulation is the covert reduction or removal of another person's ability to choose to walk away. Consciously manipulating is worse than unconsciously manipulating, but to say that there are times when manipulation is okay, you'll need to say not only that there are times when it's better for people not to make their own choices but that at those times it is appropriate and important to hide your role in how little choice they have now.

The exceptionally fine distinction to be drawn between manipulation and influence (for adults) turns on whether or not the other person continues to be able to exercise their right to say no.
:yes:

Everyone else is rationalizing deception. Call a spade a spade. You don't deserve to psychologically abuse people and feel good about yourselves at the same time.
 
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