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Introverted societies

FDG

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Finland...Austria...Japan........ISTJ hellholes!!!!!!!

It was okay last time I went to Austria, but probably just because I can speak German - I actually managed to make some friends over a 2-week stay, something I had never been able to do before (when I wasn't comfortable with my German). They seem to be getting much more open as time passes by.

Scandinavia is definitely not introverted as a whole. You could make the case for Finland and Norway, but Sweden and Denmark (especially the latter) are all about DA PARTAYZ and being silly. Efficiency and resoluteness are crimes punishable by death as well.

Meh. Try going out in Copenhagen in February, say on a Friday night. Then take a plane to Athens, do the same thing on Saturday. Perhaps they're more partayz then their scandy counterparts (still only when drunk), but they have a long way to go if they want to reach a "real" party atmosphere...
 

Vamp

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This description of Finland makes me want even more to get to Scandinavia.

It's odd of Japan to be considered introverted. Where can one find solitude in a small region around 127,420,000 people?

I think it's more along the lines of the culture being reserved. And aside from the major cities Japan is actually quite peaceful. The population is most dense around the cities but thins out significantly. Sort of like Mexico. Most Mexicans live around Mexico City and the country side is almost empty.
 

skylights

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Niaurus said:
It's odd of Japan to be considered introverted. Where can one find solitude in a small region around 127,420,000 people?

actually, this makes me think of an interesting phenomenon that occurs on NY subways.

when you're on the subway, you really don't interact with other people around you. you might push up against one another, but you don't really talk or engage one another. and, most significantly, you do not make eye contact.

why?

because it's the only way to establish privacy when everyone is smushed together so ridiculously tightly.

i think NYC is kinda E in general overall otherwise, but it's a curious thing that happens. and about japan - yeah, it's pretty isolated in some places. and like finland, there's a more significant emphasis on nature and contemplation and self-restraint. i think those are I-ish elements too.
 

SilkRoad

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i think NYC is kinda E in general overall otherwise, but it's a curious thing that happens. and about japan - yeah, it's pretty isolated in some places. and like finland, there's a more significant emphasis on nature and contemplation and self-restraint. i think those are I-ish elements too.

Finns and Japanese seem to get along quite well too and appreciate each other's cultures. They have a similar ethic in terms of interior design and that sort of thing, and the Japanese are certainly very keen on the Finnish Moomins... :D

In London where I live there is a lovely Finnish cafe in the West End and whenever I've been there there are always some Japanese. As well as the Finnish/Scandinavian products there, you can even get Japanese beer, Asahi!
 

Weber

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Meh. Try going out in Copenhagen in February, say on a Friday night. Then take a plane to Athens, do the same thing on Saturday. Perhaps they're more partayz then their scandy counterparts (still only when drunk), but they have a long way to go if they want to reach a "real" party atmosphere...

Everything is relative, I suppose. This "real" party atmosphere you're talking about is probably the reason all of Southern Europe is going down the gutter as we speak.
 

FDG

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Everything is relative, I suppose. This "real" party atmosphere you're talking about is probably the reason all of Southern Europe is going down the gutter as we speak.

Maybe (but improbably so) that's true, but we were discussing about which place has a great party atmosphere, and that's definitely not to be found in Scandinavia.
 

Weber

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Maybe (but improbably so) that's true, but we were discussing about which place has a great party atmosphere, and that's definitely not to be found in Scandinavia.

It's safe to say I disagree. Perhaps Southern Europe is extreme, but that has little bearing on the matter. Flexibility, flamboyance and frivolousness, in other words a lack of frigidity, have been core values in Danish society for many years, coming forth especially as a distancing from Germany and as a result of the '68 movement going berserk.
 

FDG

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It's safe to say I disagree. Perhaps Southern Europe is extreme, but that has little bearing on the matter. Flexibility, flamboyance and frivolousness, in other words a lack of frigidity, have been core values in Danish society for many years, coming forth especially as a distancing from Germany and as a result of the '68 movement going berserk.

Well the general approach - core values of a society towards the matter of "having fun" mean nothing, if streets are empty at night and people need to get drunk in order to have some fun. There's nothing extreme in Southern Europe, just more people going out at night.
 

Salomé

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Well the general approach - core values of a society towards the matter of "having fun" mean nothing, if streets are empty at night and people need to get drunk in order to have some fun. There's nothing extreme in Southern Europe, just more people going out at night.
This is true. The peoples of the Mediterranean region are simply less inhibited and more moderate. The further north you go, the more you find inhibited/repressed societies (nothing to do with introversion,btw) who abuse alcohol as a result. You can even see this pattern within countries - like Britain.
 

Weber

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Well the general approach - core values of a society towards the matter of "having fun" mean nothing,

Okaaaay... And here I thought we were discussing the general mentality of societies. What exactly were we discussing, then?

if streets are empty at night and people need to get drunk in order to have some fun.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same Copenhagen here. Empty streets? I lived there for a year and never saw that. Have you ever been to the city for more than a quick holiday? Well, truth be told it sounds like you've never been there at all.

The peoples of the Mediterranean region are simply less inhibited and more moderate.

Inherent contradiction. Are you sure you're an INTP?
The further north you go, the more you find inhibited/repressed societies (nothing to do with introversion,btw) who abuse alcohol as a result.

Yes, there's a magic correlation between northernness and inhibition that has no exceptions. Oh wait, it must be the cold. Now it's scientifically proven.

You can even see this pattern within countries - like Britain.

I seriously doubt that the Northern Irish drink any less than the Scottish.
 

FDG

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I have lived in Copenhagen for 6 months and a half. From October to early March, streets are almost empty at night.
 

Weber

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I have lived in Copenhagen for 6 months and a half. From October to early March, streets are almost empty at night.

I'm not sure by which yardstick you're measuring this phenomenon. Perhaps it is a yardstick based on countries where jobless people wander the city streets throughout the night because they have nothing else to do; Athens, as you mentioned, being an excellent example. I don't think everybody needs to be out on the streets at 2AM on a wednesday in order for a society to qualify as "E".
 

FDG

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I'm not sure by which yardstick you're measuring this phenomenon. Perhaps it is a yardstick based on countries where jobless people wander the city streets throughout the night because they have nothing else to do; Athens, as you mentioned, being an excellent example.

I fairly doubt people drinking (expensive) cocktails at night, on the promenade just next to the Acropolis, are jobless :jew: Not to mention young people going to bars just to have a drink with their friends, without getting wasted :)

By the way, I've also visited Munich (one of the richest cities of Europe, extremely low unemployment) for a relatively large amount of time, and that city had quite a vibrant nightlife, too - even during the winter months. So, if you like to delude yourself into thinking that those who go out at night are "slackers"...you're welcome :huh:
 

minus

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Hmm... I'm not sure how it would turn out if we had statistics about drinking an extroversion. Sure, the extroverts will be found in bars more often, but would they need to drink that much? If you're an extrovert, it should be enough to hang around with drinking people and you could pretty much be as extroverted as you like. On the other hand, there are a lot of people who drink at home mostly.

It's not so much that they needed to drink to be outgoing and act extroverted the way an introvert might. Rather, drinking made it acceptable for them to behave that way because everyone came out of their shells more when they drank. It's an excuse to let their repressed, more outgoing natures, out of the box. At least, that's the what I got from his story. Simply hanging out with drinking people wouldn't afford the same leeway if you're still sober. As such, it quickly becomes a regular occurrence.
 

Weber

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People who are out in the middle of the night in the middle of the week are typically slackers. As for the notion that the streets of Copenhagen are empty in the evening on weekdays and weekend nights, that's just absurd. It's pointless to keep discussing personal anecdotes anyway.

As for the correlation between alcohol consumption and northernness in Europe, you've guessed it: total bullshit.
 

FDG

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People who are out in the middle of the night in the middle of the week are typically slackers. As for the notion that the streets of Cope0aagen are empty in the evening on weekdays and weekend nights, that's just absurd. It's pointless to keep discussing personal anecdotes anyway.

As for the correlation between alcohol consumption and northernness in Europe, you've guessed it: total bullshit.

Lol @ your prejudices. I know a shitload of people that go out almost every night and are very accomplished. I hope one day you'll be able to experience something similar, too. Goodbye.
 

Weber

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Lol @ your prejudices. I know a shitload of people that go out almost every night and are very accomplished. I hope one day you'll be able to experience something similar, too. Goodbye.

Congratulations on your anecdotes. Next time, please bring facts and logic.
 

FDG

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Congratulations on your anecdotes. Next time, please bring facts and logic.

Facts and logic when discussing if people go out at night? Please. Get out of your room / study and try to live :hi:
 

skylights

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Flexibility, flamboyance and frivolousness, in other words a lack of frigidity, have been core values in Danish society for many years, coming forth especially as a distancing from Germany and as a result of the '68 movement going berserk.

i need to move to denmark. :laugh:

It's not so much that they needed to drink to be outgoing and act extroverted the way an introvert might. Rather, drinking made it acceptable for them to behave that way because everyone came out of their shells more when they drank. It's an excuse to let their repressed, more outgoing natures, out of the box.

agree with this. it's an excuse to get around the social value of being reserved.

Weber said:
Yes, there's a magic correlation between northernness and inhibition that has no exceptions. Oh wait, it must be the cold. Now it's scientifically proven.

actually... haha...

it does seem like a general pattern though. certainly it has exceptions, but overall, it seems to work out. swedish society (i have not yet traveled within denmark) is more outgoing than finnish, definitely, but i can't say it holds a candle to spanish. there's still more of a cultural emphasis on reserve. the swedes i've known can throw excellent parties but they are not likely to throw themselves all over you like a lot of spanish people i've known. it's not a necessary law and it doesn't fit everyone, but it is an interesting occurrence, in particular because it is mirrored on the east coast of the the states. the further south you go, in general, the more overtly sociable people are.

and actually, when i lived in finland we discussed this exact phenomenon in a cultural sociology class i took - the theory was really that colder places in general are less conducive to small talk (makes sense, who really wants to stand around and chat about nothing in particular when it's -30 out?), and areas that were more isolated for longer periods of time (in the general development of europe) tend to be more introverted. less people around, less cultural values centered around sociability.

or alternatively, in america, northern society industrialized first and there was much more competition, as well as being of mostly protestant descent - germans in the midatlantic, english, french, dutch higher up = whose society emphasized restraint, while the south had a later influx of irish catholics (though so did northern urban areas, of course) and many african americans - and the culture itself was slower-paced and less individually competitive (cooperation for agriculture plantations) - so valuing more sociability makes sense in a lot of ways.

but like you alluded to, these are just theories, of course, and there are plenty of exceptions.

what i'm really curious about is how much of introversion/extraversion - MBTI I/E, not just sociability - is genetic. but that's rather tricky.
 
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