Introverted societies

[Robopop]

None so far. But someday my brethrens someday we will create our own intpian utopia.


Pfft...it'll probably be just a dump somewhere.

I think an INTPian society will not be a functioning one. It always has to have it's shares of J's SJ's, and other types but mainly J's.

the most intpish would be a small messy research unit somewhere...a society is different.

Anarchy it iz!!!!!!

 

[Tiltyred]

The greater southern Appalachian region (especially West Virginia, Kentucky, and the mountainous parts of Tennessee and Virginia) is traditionally an introverted culture because of the isolation of the mountains. "Mountain people" still exist in WV, they hide from the census, and have no inclination to join the greater society. It's the stereotype of the suspicious, quiet, watchful, strong hillbilly who will chase you off of their property with a gun...which isn't a pleasant image...but I also think there's something to be respected about it, it's very "live and let live" in a primitive sense, a hermit's paradise, really. My grandfather was a personification of this, and I feel this influence on my own personality though I am much more attuned to modern mainstream culture.

It's an interesting contrast to the constant concern with societal image in the wealthier circles of the deep South.

Me, too.

I'd say it's high N as well, what do you think?

 

[skylights]

Finland is introverted, because people here don't like people. I don't exactly feel like I fit in.

Yes something like that. I would fit in a society with tribes and feasts... I would be the friendly hermit.

In Finland, I'm not sure what it is, something bothers me about the atmosphere. I definitely get the feeling that people don't like people. There is way too much robotic obeying and "doing stuff as they expect me to do" and people are depressed. They walk with a concerned, a bit angry look on their face, no one likes to rock the boat. And they really have nothing to worry about, things are good here. Comparing to the rest of the world things are so good that they should have parties on the streets... but no...

finland is so interesting. i definitely had an adjustment period where i had to figure out that bouncing down the street humming and smiling is an oddity, lol. and that seems to be more true across northern europe in general. i appreciated some of the introversion of finnish culture - the states in general is so freaking extraverted, and it's kind of relaxing to not be expected to be so social all the time. on the other hand, it was very odd in some ways, for instance i didn't get to know very many of my finnish neighbors - i often got to know students of other nationalities better. things are very good there, and so safe, i agree that it is surprising that there are not more social celebrations... drunk finns are very fun though, 80s music and singing in the streets and all

i could never keep up with the extraversion of the spanish students i knew though... they were ESFP to the max... PARTY PARTY PARTY

The greater southern Appalachian region (especially West Virginia, Kentucky, and the mountainous parts of Tennessee and Virginia) is traditionally an introverted culture because of the isolation of the mountains. "Mountain people" still exist in WV, they hide from the census, and have no inclination to join the greater society. It's the stereotype of the suspicious, quiet, watchful, strong hillbilly who will chase you off of their property with a gun...which isn't a pleasant image...but I also think there's something to be respected about it, it's very "live and let live" in a primitive sense, a hermit's paradise, really. My grandfather was a personification of this, and I feel this influence on my own personality though I am much more attuned to modern mainstream culture.

It's an interesting contrast to the constant concern with societal image in the wealthier circles of the deep South.

agree with this. deep southern culture is very different from appalachian mountain culture. the same is true for northeastern (maine, vermont, new hampshire, RI, etc) culture vs nyc! northeastern culture is a little bit introverted in general, i think. the outdoorsman, or rugged fisherman in a quiet village thing, you know?

incidentally, there's something more Fi about the east coast north and Fe about the east coast south (besides most of florida... most of florida is not really southern lol). i have family in both areas and it's an interesting contrast. i like going up north because it's kind of expected that you'll just speak your mind, and that's cool. there's less societal constraint, and i feel like people are more frank about things. whereas in the south, i pull off to the side of a dark road and put my flashers on at night, and 3 drivers individually pull off to ask me if i need help. people are just generally nicer - but it's harder to tell if it's a facade... like, up north, if someone is pissed off, you generally know it. down south it's harder to tell, which can be much more pleasant in some ways but then it's also harder to tell if someone is just manipulating you for their own sake... both cultures have their up and downsides... sometimes i think it's better for me to live in the south because it curbs my Fi-ness... lol...

 

[Niaurus]

I thought a lot of INTx people live in Scandinavia and Germany. I saw a map somewhere. Now I only found this, to which I can't agree, but it's still interesting: myPersonality Research

 

[figsfiggyfigs]

Finland...Austria...Japan........ISTJ hellholes!!!!!!!

Basically.

Everyone I have had the pleasure of meeting so far has been an ISTJ... a few exceptions, but 90% ISTJ's.

believe it or not, as "open" as those societies are, that IS their "S", have to see it like they do, otherwise, you're strange.

Very few people like the idea of " theorizing", or trying to find a different path to reach the same conclusion, they find it unnecessary. It's frustrating.

 

[Weber]

Scandinavia is definitely not introverted as a whole. You could make the case for Finland and Norway, but Sweden and Denmark (especially the latter) are all about DA PARTAYZ and being silly. Efficiency and resoluteness are crimes punishable by death as well.

 

[figsfiggyfigs]

Scandinavia is definitely not introverted as a whole. You could make the case for Finland and Norway, but Sweden and Denmark (especially the latter) are all about DA PARTAYZ and being silly. Efficiency and resoluteness are crimes punishable by death as well.

Yes, when alcohol is involved.

 

[Weber]

Yes, when alcohol is involved.

Not necessarily. Danish mentality is ENFP to the core, and obstinate Swedish political correctness is one of the horrible byproducts of misguided Fe.

 

[Moiety]

Not necessarily. Danish mentality is ENFP to the core, and obstinate Swedish political correctness is one of the horrible byproducts of misguided Fe.

Danish mentality is ENFP to the core?

They are liberal and have a lot of nice things, but apart from that what is so ENFP about them? They aren't ultra warm and open to anyone or easy to become friends with, or lazy bums...

 

[Weber]

They are all of those things, and having a plan and being effective is a sin here as well. Hipsters and modern pseudo-hippies abound.

 

[Moiety]

They are all of those things, and having a plan and being effective is a sin here as well. Hipsters and modern pseudo-hippies abound.

I'd need to hear that from a Danish ENFP I'm afraid

I do know you guys are supposed to be the happiest country in the world, so you're definitely more ENFP than Japan...

 

[SilkRoad]

I love Finland, so some of the comments here made me a bit sad. but it's a childhood thing for me as I spent a lot of time there as a child (visiting my grandmother). I just remember it as peaceful and nature-oriented, with interesting culture and history. And I had some warm and loving people around me, my grandmother and my mom's and grandmother's friends.

It definitely seems to be true that Scandinavians, and perhaps Finns especially, are rather over-introverted and reserved as a whole and they rely far too much on alcohol to overcome that. Which is kinda sad too. It causes so many problems. I live in London, and I have to say that the Scandinavians I've met here (mostly Swedes) are pretty much drunk all the time when you meet them socially and acting like they have few morals or inhibitions. (They seem to get along particularly well with, and behave like, many of the Antipodeans.) Which is the opposite to the stereotype, but perhaps it conforms to the "drunk Scandinavian" stereotype.

I haven't really known enough Finns since childhood to be able to comment on them. My mom is an INTJ and it's almost as though she is her own nationality. She is one of the most individual people I know. She has lived in Canada for well over half her life now but does not remotely consider herself Canadian. I don't know if she even considers herself very Finnish.

One of my best friends (Canadian) is married to a Japanese guy and lives there. She finds aspects of it challenging but basically likes it - she's also INFJ. She likes the way that people show respect for each other and have ritualised social graces to make things run more smoothly for everyone. Although I find Japan very foreign (I've been once and am going again this year) I did love it when I visited - it might be too unfamiliar with me but for the type of person I am I could see many advantages.

 

[Moiety]

I love Finland, so some of the comments here made me a bit sad. but it's a childhood thing for me as I spent a lot of time there as a child (visiting my grandmother). I just remember it as peaceful and nature-oriented, with interesting culture and history. And I had some warm and loving people around me, my grandmother and my mom's and grandmother's friends.

It definitely seems to be true that Scandinavians, and perhaps Finns especially, are rather over-introverted and reserved as a whole and they rely far too much on alcohol to overcome that. Which is kinda sad too. It causes so many problems. I live in London, and I have to say that the Scandinavians I've met here (mostly Swedes) are pretty much drunk all the time when you meet them socially and acting like they have few morals or inhibitions. (They seem to get along particularly well with, and behave like, many of the Antipodeans.) Which is the opposite to the stereotype, but perhaps it conforms to the "drunk Scandinavian" stereotype.

I haven't really known enough Finns since childhood to be able to comment on them. My mom is an INTJ and it's almost as though she is her own nationality. She is one of the most individual people I know. She has lived in Canada for well over half her life now but does not remotely consider herself Canadian. I don't know if she even considers herself very Finnish.

One of my best friends (Canadian) is married to a Japanese guy and lives there. She finds aspects of it challenging but basically likes it - she's also INFJ. She likes the way that people show respect for each other and have ritualised social graces to make things run more smoothly for everyone. Although I find Japan very foreign (I've been once and am going again this year) I did love it when I visited - it might be too unfamiliar with me but for the type of person I am I could see many advantages.

I do think FJs are more likely to understand Japanese social rituals. Certainly a lot more than an FP

 

[SilkRoad]

I do think FJs are more likely to understand Japanese social rituals. Certainly a lot more than an FP

Yes, definitely agree with that!

 

[StrawMan]

The greater southern Appalachian region (especially West Virginia, Kentucky, and the mountainous parts of Tennessee and Virginia) is traditionally an introverted culture because of the isolation of the mountains.

So, would isolation play a big part in developing an introverted culture? Japan is a group of islands, Finland is quite isolated country...

 

[nolla]

So, would isolation play a big part in developing an introverted culture? Japan is a group of islands, Finland is quite isolated country...

Here it is also shaped by the low density in the past. There is this, I don't know what... maybe proverb kinda story about the personality living in a hut in the middle of the forest. "When a woodchip comes down the stream, he heads upstream with an axe" not to help the stranger cut wood, I might add... Anyhow, I think this can be seen when comparing Japanese and Finnish cultures. Japanese seem to be warm to the people they deal with regularly. Finns are isolated from each other as well. We don't have very long tradition of having people around us.

 

[minus]

This thread reminded me of two things. First was the article quoted below which, while I realize it isn't perfectly on topic; it can flesh out a lot of what's already been said.

Like individuals, cultures have different styles. America is a noisy culture, unlike, say, Finland, which values silence. Individualism, dominant in the U.S. and Germany, promotes the direct, fast-paced style of communication associated with extraversion. Collectivistic societies, such as those in East Asia, value privacy and restraint, qualities more characteristic of introverts.

According to the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator personality test administered to two randomized national samples, introverts make up 50 percent of the U.S. population. The MBTI definition of introversion—a preference for solitude, reflection, internal exploration of ideas vs. active engagement and pursuit of rewards in the external/social world—correlates closely with the Big Five description. But the results still surprise; if every other person is an introvert, why doesn't the cultural tone reflect that?

It's not just that we overestimate the numbers of extraverts in our midst because they're more salient. The bias of individuals is reinforced in the media, which emphasize the visual, the talkative, and the sound bite— immediacy over reflection.

"In verbal cultures, remaining silent presents a problem," report Anio Sallinen-Kuparinen, James McCroskey, and Virginia Richmond, who have studied communication styles in the U.S. and Finland. Perceptions of competence tend to be based on verbal behavior. An introvert who is silent in a group may actually be quite engaged—taking in what is said, thinking about it, waiting for a turn to speak—but will be seen in the U.S. as a poor communicator.

When psychologists Catherine Caldwell-Harris and Ayse Ayçiçegi compared U.S. and Turkish samples, they found that having "an orientation inconsistent with societal values" is a risk factor for poor mental health. The findings support what the researchers call the personality-culture clash hypothesis: "Psychological adjustment depends on the degree of match between personality and the values of surrounding society."

(source)

The second was the anecdote of a Scandinavian friend of mine who recounted how extroverts often became habitual drinkers, if not alcoholics, because in that instance it became socially acceptable to be loud, outgoing, and even downright sociable. That is to say, more themselves. Come to think of it, there's quite a bit of that here in middle-of-nowhere Wisconsin too.

 

[nolla]

"Psychological adjustment depends on the degree of match between personality and the values of surrounding society."

This seems to be an important theme in my life.

The second was the anecdote of a Scandinavian friend of mine who recounted how extroverts often became habitual drinkers, if not alcoholics, because in that instance it became socially acceptable to be loud, outgoing, and even downright sociable.

Hmm... I'm not sure how it would turn out if we had statistics about drinking an extroversion. Sure, the extroverts will be found in bars more often, but would they need to drink that much? If you're an extrovert, it should be enough to hang around with drinking people and you could pretty much be as extroverted as you like. On the other hand, there are a lot of people who drink at home mostly.

 

[esfpmary]

I guess it depends on the motivation for drinking. Introverts might drink to become more sociable whilst extraverts might drink to tone down their sociability.

 

[nolla]

extraverts might drink to tone down their sociability.

Umm... how would that work? Isn't alcohol about removing inhibitions? Can't remember any extrovert toning down because of it...