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Ne/Ni Jungian Cognitive Function Interaction

highlander

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Ni Preference and Interpersonal Interaction

Ni has a more complex definition that I have failed to see anyone accurately define at all. Ni has the attitude of preferring to interpolate optimum systems from ideas based upon internal stimulus. This gives the dominant Ni types, the INTJ and INFJ's a focus on 'key symbolic ideas' which can be brought forward and optimized to build structure. Because Ni reacts to internal stimulus, these types will be external stimulus avoidant (sic. human interaction) as they would prefer space to help them solve whatever symbolic problem is running in their head.

In human interaction these types often appear acutely observant; although they may have phased out to deal with some lingering internal conundrum. The support function adds considerably more definition to interaction as it is the external aspect. INTJs when they flip from Ni to Te will appear critical, viewing ideas as systems to be interpolated and optimized to solve any outstanding problems or to develop their understanding of ideas, with Ni providing a symbolic focus on the key aspects. INFJs will appear giving, with Fe actualising a need to empathically share what they view are the iconic themes that are driving them; expect lots of subtle but powerful emotional gestures based upon others needs.

Therefore, dominant Ni users view intrapersonal thinking and blocking out external stimulus as the preferred opportunity available to them. If they they feel they wish to make friends or express love to another they will do so by interacting via. their secondary external aspect while dotting it with key iconic themes that their Ni prefers. They will then retreat to allow the other time to digest the concept as they would do themselves, regardless of the partner's preference. As they wish significant space and time to flex their Ni, they expect others also to wish it as a consequence.

First, I'd like to say that I think this is quite a good description. At least, it certainly resonates with me.

Opposing Interpersonal Interaction

To summarise where we are at this point it is important to note that:
Ne types will prefer to receive and give stimulus as is their preference
Ni types will prefer to have and give space as is their preference.

These two functional attitudes to interpersonal interaction are directly opposed which can lead to communication confusion between Ni and Ne users.

I have often stressed that as a dominant Ni user I often feel that any interaction with an Ne user is immediately a loss. Because my preference is to sit and ponder and introvert to have a lengthy conversation with an ENxP I lose a large portion of my ability to do so while I feed their Ne. In effect, they love it, but I lose doing what I prefer to some degree.

The side effect of such positive interaction for the Ne dominant is that they may choose to like the Ni dominant so much that they shower them with attention, without realising that this makes the Ni dominant feel at even greater of a loss as opposed to allowing time for the Ni dominant to recover and ponder. They may then become offended because if the Ni user wishes to be friendly with them they may receed into their shell because that is the Ni preference.

As a result it is very important to find some kind of type interaction balance between Ne and Ni users and an understanding of how the other shows affection is the flip side of what may be naturally expected.

It is a bit difficult for me to separate out Ne vs Ni, as individual functions, and how interaction between the two plays out. What I can speak to from a practical perspective is my experience as an INTJ with ENFPs. My experience is that there is a special kind of interpersonal chemistry that seems to exist. I tend to think they're funny, they cause me to lighten up, and they provide a perspective that I simply don't have. I enjoy the interaction. On the negative side, they can see me as being overly critical at times and I can feel a bit exhausted during or after the interaction with them.

I'm just having the realization that Fidelia talks about of "I need to reach out more," or "I need to initiate more." Huh.

It's really challenging for me to articulate half of what's in my head; I'm so bad at elaborating in-the-moment.
...

More to the OP - I definitely need to retreat and have my own space to formulate my thoughts, make sense of them, and reach conclusions.

I experience the same thing and it is at times frustrating to be this way. I would prefer to be more articulate in the moment.

Personally, I have little difficulty reasoning in either direction, though I find much more naturally tend to the Ni. (Various cognitive function tests - unreliable, I know! - score me high in Ne and Ti, though Ni and Te are much higher, and Fi and the rest are lower.) I find myself getting into strange discussions on occasion, when I express this understanding of Ne, which should be a shadow, and I find myself surprised when other INTJs don't seem to get Ne, and xNTPs don't get Ni. They seem very much the same to me: not due to "confusion" of the concepts, but because I switch from one mode to the other with only minimal effort.

I believe it's possible that we do the same thing and I have similar function test results (high Ne and Ti). Just this evening in a brainstorming session, it felt like I was flipping back and forth between Ni and Ne, as I understand them anyway. While I had an urge to "run away and think about it", the part of me that wanted to come to closure forced me to stay in the room and bounce ideas around so we could get closer as a team towards conceptual alignment. We had a lot of data and information on business drivers and trends. I wanted us to connect all of the disparate information and identify the key insights from that data so that we could decide what we were going to do. It was difficult for me to talk through it with the team in real time as the thoughts and ideas are so clearly unformed in my head.
 

Kalach

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Someone who prefers Ni is always going to take what is outside oneself, and then internally deduce what is "really going on." The actual results of the deduction are difficult to describe. Instead, either Te or Fe comes along and turns the Ni deduction into a nice pat explanation, but in practice, the explanation changes depending on context, and Ni is always shifting the context.

Ni can't deduce. It can compound.

The primary difference I find in communication between Ne and Ni is, literally, the objective/subjective divide. I know (intuitively--booyah) that when I articulate some vision, or make some joke, I'm delving into an inner world. It is, prima facie, an alternate vision of reality. And I know Ne people have trouble with it for exactly that reason. It's not real, they think, it's just a possibility. Which ignores all the compounding that's been going on for years. That alternate vision of reality is a compound vision, built up from years of perceiving inner worlds (and sometimes relating them to outer worlds).

I believe that in general to switch from Ni to Ne is to halt that compounding process. One cares less for collecting visions together and more for spotting what's actually going on right now. Compounding is over, ecstatic immediate insight is begun.

So, yeah, I think you're wrong about switching direction. I think you're probably describing some more sophisticated behavioral use of Ni resources rather than some change in basic cognitive functioning.

Someone who prefers Ne is always intuiting external patterns, and the judging functions (Fi or Ti) internalize observations. The intuitive process is visible for everyone to see, by its very nature. There is typically no pat explanation to others: the final deductions are internalized.

Why do Ne users never conclude? They have a judgment function. Why do they maintain an earnest innocence? A kind of seeming guilelessness. It's that openness crap. The openness to new information. So how do they actual learn anything? Ni does this compounding thing, it seems to me. But where do Ne users store their insights? Or do they store them? They must have something for Ne to work with. It does not come new and freshly formed to every new environment. They do grow in Ne ability. Where's it kept?

I think in some sense it's kept "out there". As they grow increasingly aware of the patterns that exist in the world, they recognise them more often (and move on to more sophisticated versions or to wholly different environments). They don't compound insights into new items so much as they map what's there. (And there'll be some Si library of some kind, but that's another story.) Or so I imagine.

With that kind of discussion in mind, I'd be saying that Ni and Ne, behaviourally speaking, can perform the tasks of one another. Cognitively speaking though, they're formed in different directions and seemingly by different processes, and it seems to me ultimately do end up with different content. But behaviorally.......



/thesis.
 

Wonkavision

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Regarding the OP:

Seems like a really good analysis, except for this:

These types often lament that they feel like 'knowledge thieves' taking others ideas and seeing alternate uses for them

I have no idea where you got that. It sounds absurd.


Also, I may be mistaken, but it seems like you're overestimating the Ne user's need/desire for stimulation from the particular person they are interacting with at a given time.

It's particularly hilarious that you seem to think Ne users find Ni users to be so engaging that they can't bear when the Ni user withdraws! (HUGE hardy-har on THAT one! :rofl1:) Frankly, you guys tend to put me to sleep more often than not.

To an Ne user, particularly a dominant Ne user, the attention does NOT generally rest for long on one thing. On the contrary, it tends to wander pretty easily and fluidly.

So, as incredibly stimulating as a conversation with an Ni user might be, the Ne user will have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER turning her/his attention elsewhere, should the amazingly engaging :)rolli: :D) Ni user decide to withdraw in contemplation.

I realize I may be reading the wrong tone in your statements, but I'm just telling you what it sounds like to me.

And I'm sure if I am wrong, you'll be more than happy to tell me. :rolli: :D
 

Zarathustra

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*these last two posts have given the thread quite the interesting turn*

In storytelling terms, I believe we would say we just entered "Conflict"...

(and there's two of em! :yay:)
 

highlander

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I believe that in general to switch from Ni to Ne is to halt that compounding process. One cares less for collecting visions together and more for spotting what's actually going on right now. Compounding is over, ecstatic immediate insight is begun.

I'm not so sure.

From what I understand, there are at least a couple of theories floating around about the development of functions after the dominant and auxiliary.

Theory 1 - The opposite attitudes of the dominant and auxiliary function attitudes are developed as the third and forth preferred function attitudes. I think this is perhaps true for me personally.
Theory 2 - Functions develop in an order something along the lines of what Beebe suggests, with Tertiary and Inferior following, but that the remaining four functions develop in a sequence demanded by an individual's circumstances.

Either Theory 1 or Theory 2 could explain why Uumlau and I think we use Ne and Ti with some level of adeptness.
 

InvisibleJim

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Regarding the OP:

Seems like a really good analysis, except for this:

I have no idea where you got that. It sounds absurd.

Also, I may be mistaken, but it seems like you're overestimating the Ne user's need/desire for stimulation from the particular person they are interacting with at a given time.

It's particularly hilarious that you seem to think Ne users find Ni users to be so engaging that they can't bear when the Ni user withdraws! (HUGE hardy-har on THAT one! :rofl1:) Frankly, you guys tend to put me to sleep more often than not.

To an Ne user, particularly a dominant Ne user, the attention does NOT generally rest for long on one thing. On the contrary, it tends to wander pretty easily and fluidly.

So, as incredibly stimulating as a conversation with an Ni user might be, the Ne user will have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER turning her/his attention elsewhere, should the amazingly engaging :)rolli: :D) Ni user decide to withdraw in contemplation.

I realize I may be reading the wrong tone in your statements, but I'm just telling you what it sounds like to me.

And I'm sure if I am wrong, you'll be more than happy to tell me. :rolli: :D

The reason I posted this thread was to prove that is nigh impossible to have a serious MBTI discussion on this forum without it descending into misunderstanding and debacle.

That quote when used elsewhere was actually given kudos by other dominant Ne users; ENTPs seem to strongly relate to it. Don't get your knickers in a twist over a loose definition.

Ne engages with its environment to find stimulus and idea exchange (by definition). It requires external stimulus to grow and invent new ideas. As a dominant Ne user you excel at taking ideas from elsewhere and finding brand new uses for them elsewhere almost spontaneously.

The direction of this article is more around Ne/Ni in a reasonably constant relationship, I'm not talking about bumping into a person for 2 minutes or 5, perhaps over a number of years in a close friendship or in a relationship as this is often where serious problems arise. Ne/Ni dominants have very different interaction over a short space of time.
 

Zarathustra

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From what I understand, there are at least a couple of theories floating around about the development of functions after the dominant and auxiliary.

Theory 1 - The opposite attitudes of the dominant and auxiliary function attitudes are developed as the third and forth preferred function attitudes. I think this is perhaps true for me personally.
Theory 2 - Functions develop in an order something along the lines of what Beebe suggests, with Tertiary and Inferior following, but that the remaining four functions develop in a sequence demanded by an individual's circumstances.

I believe it's some mixture of those two theories.

For some people it might be more one, for others more the other.

I am by no means a believer in strict MBTI function order.

Any theory with such rigidity reeks of falsity to me...

I actually tend to score higher on my Ti than Te, usually.

Whenever I look at the questions for individual function strengths, it surprises me how they barely mention logic skillz having to do with Te.

It almost seems like Ti owns the whole logical analysis department...

Not sure whether you guys checked out that Mindframes test, but they divide the mind up into 8 "mindframes", that roughly correlate to the functions, imo.

The interesting thing is: they get rid of the Judging and Perceiving functions criteria (which, to be honest, I've always found a little bit tenuous), and replace it by saying that the 4 extroverted mindframes/functions are "Action-oriented" and the 4 introverted mindframes/functions are "Thinking-oriented"...

Anyway, Jim, I'm glad to have helped moving this thread a little closer to your preconceived hypothesis. :cheers:
 

Wonkavision

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Don't get your knickers in a twist over a loose definition.

Nobody's getting their knickers in a twist, with the possible exception of you.

As I said at the beginning of my first post, I think it's a really good analysis.
 

Thalassa

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The reason I posted this thread was to prove that is nigh impossible to have a serious MBTI discussion on this forum without it descending into misunderstanding and debacle.

That quote when used elsewhere was actually given kudos by other dominant Ne users; ENTPs seem to strongly relate to it. Don't get your knickers in a twist over a loose definition.

Ne engages with its environment to find stimulus and idea exchange (by definition). It requires external stimulus to grow and invent new ideas. As a dominant Ne user you excel at taking ideas from elsewhere and finding brand new uses for them elsewhere almost spontaneously.

The direction of this article is more around Ne/Ni in a reasonably constant relationship, I'm not talking about bumping into a person for 2 minutes or 5, perhaps over a number of years in a close friendship or in a relationship as this is often where serious problems arise. Ne/Ni dominants have very different interaction over a short space of time.


I see Wonka's point, actually. While I was reading your post, I was thinking "Is this a girl that likes you or something?" Simply because I can't imagine the average Ne dom chasing down endlessly fascinating Ni doms to the point of doing what you're talking about, outside of some sort of relationship/romantic/crush context, seriously.

You may have encountered an EXTREME EXTROVERT (as an aside, SimWorld is both an Ne dom and like a 99.9% extrovert, so I'm also wondering if he is who you mean) who you have this problem with, just because they are an extreme extrovert, not because they are Ne dom. I generally have this problem with ESxx and really want them to STFU and go away a lot of the time, even if I like that person or even consider them a very dear friend or beloved family member.
 

Kalach

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As we all know, nobody scores nuthin on nuthin. The function use tests depend crucially on your interpretation of the test questions, and (as far as I know) are always equivocal. Indeed, for the function use tests to actually work properly, you'd have to already have a fairly good self-representation of what kind of cognition you actually do engage in, and how to differentiate it when answering questions about your habits of personality.

And Beebe is wrong about something. I'm not sure what he is wrong about, but there's something about the foundation of his theory of development that seems partial, perhaps most especially to persons with Ne/Si as a core development.

So-o-o-...

I think it's probably possible to put Ni operation on hold and focus outside of oneself to play with ideas. I bet when you do it, it uses a lot of stuff you already thought of, and more crucially, it most closely resembles re-interpreting the outside world, often with an absurd or comical slant. If your "Ne" often takes the form of "Well, if what we were just talking about is so, then it's probably because of the aliens--they're among us, you know? And that's why so many people are afraid of green. [Etc and so developing wilder and wilder implications]". If that's the "Ne" you guys are doing, then it's Ni.

(Or more technically, it's Te being straight man and Ni playing the comic.)


And Ne people don't do it that way. They change the subject when one begins rattling off that way.
 

Zarathustra

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As we all know, nobody scores nuthin on nuthin. The function use tests depend crucially on your interpretation of the test questions, and (as far as I know) are always equivocal. Indeed, for the function use tests to actually work properly, you'd have to already have a fairly good self-representation of what kind of cognition you actually do engage in, and how to differentiate it when answering questions about your habits of personality.

And Beebe is wrong about something. I'm not sure what he is wrong about, but there's something about the foundation of his theory of development that seems partial, perhaps most especially to persons with Ne/Si as a core development.

So-o-o-...

I think it's probably possible to put Ni operation on hold and focus outside of oneself to play with ideas. I bet when you do it, it uses a lot of stuff you already thought of, and more crucially, it most closely resembles re-interpreting the outside world, often with an absurd or comical slant. If your "Ne" often takes the form of "Well, if what we were just talking about is so, then it's probably because of the aliens--they're among us, you know? And that's why so many people are afraid of green. [Etc and so developing wilder and wilder implications]". If that's the "Ne" you guys are doing, then it's Ni.

(Or more technically, it's Te being straight man and Ni playing the comic.)

And Ne people don't do it that way. They change the subject when one begins rattling off that way.

Kalach, what do you think of the attribute commonly attributed to Ne of spontaneously seeing/making/understanding connections (puns, metaphors, similes, etc.) between various objects in the real world right in front of your face?
 

OrangeAppled

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I like the way Ne is described....seems right to me. Although, having Ne in the auxiliary position works a bit differently of course. Some of the OP amounts to an introvert's experience with an extrovert, which I can relate to. I tend to need time to process things alone, and do not ping back & forth with the ease that a Ne-dom does. I think I am much more articulate in writing than in person also, partly because of the time delay it allows. I definitely have found Ne-dom brain picking tiring and overwhelming.

I'm pinging around workplace meetings right now, but I'll have to revisit this thread.

The quote above definitely resonated -- I think the most pervasive issue I've had with Ni-primaries is feeling like they didn't like me, or that we weren't connecting, because instead of reaching out to engage and/or accept engagement, they would always pull back and disappear on me, like turtles going back into their shells, as soon as things got going, and I never knew how to read any of it. It was confounding, and meanwhile left me rather speechless since I did not want to misinterpret thing or intrude where I was not wanted. I just had no clue how to read it.

It's like they just lived inside a black box, in the typical sense of the word. I had no clue what was going on in there. I could only see the Je perspective, but to me that was just a "working costume/demeanor" and not really the core of who they were, which remained cloaked.

I experience something similar when I deal with Ni-dom and Ni-aux. Particularly NFJs seem annoyed that I don't initiate much, but they don't realize they can seem as inconsistent as me when it comes to opening up that inner world.
 

Wonkavision

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What do you think of the attribute commonly attributed to Ne of spontaneously seeing/making/understanding connections (puns, metaphors, similes, etc.) between various objects in the real world right in front of your face?

This is really off-the-cuff, but I suspect that's more of an Ne-Ti thing than an Ne-Fi one.

The connections that I see tend to be more about people's motivations, what they're feeling, the subtext underlying their statements, etc.

(Actually, that's not really it. That was kind of BS. :doh:)

The main connections I see/make/understand are the overarching similarities or points of agreement between various ideas, concepts, philosophies, statements, etc. --synthesizing them in a holistic way----sort of like how Joseph Campbell links all those different myths and so forth.

I'm not so keen on puns, metaphors, and similies.
 

Kalach

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Kalach, what do you think of the attribute commonly attributed to Ne of spontaneously seeing/making/understanding connections (puns, metaphors, similes, etc.) between various objects in the real world right in front of your face?

Honestly? I haven't seen it be wielded with insight.

The one time I saw, literally saw, Ne at work, it was Ne overload. I told an ENFP a personal story she totally hadn't expected and she spaced out. It was kind of funny. Apparently the story changed a lot of things she'd understood, or had been keeping on hold as possibly understood, and her brain overloaded.

But, and perhaps I haven't been hanging around the right people, I haven't seen it used to uncover core truths. There's constant investigation, but if there were any staging points of somewhat completed understanding, I never heard about it in a way I could understand. The constant investigation-ness makes all conclusions halfway not worth listening to.

And I'm aware of viewing it that way only because the constancy of investigation undermines a crucial step in my process: from time to time I have to say XYZ is true, and act on it (and then learn something new), and if XYZ is supposed to be question again *before* I act, I don't get to act.

^ presumably a constant J vs P issue, but perhaps with some added piquancy if it's Ne P vs Ni J since in theory we're both working the same turf.
 

InvisibleJim

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And Ne people don't do it that way. They change the subject when one begins rattling off that way.

Correct, Ni can pick any random topic and use Te to elaborate upon it, Ni can be the fool and Te the data gatherer and Fi (or indeed Ni's iconology) the critic. Ne instinctually seeks out new topics altogether when depth wishes to be discovered or will want to come back later if Ti is tickled

(Caveat pre-mud slinging: This is an ENTP INTJ example)
 

Zarathustra

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Honestly? I haven't seen it be wielded with insight.

The one time I saw, literally saw, Ne at work, it was Ne overload. I told an ENFP a personal story she totally hadn't expected and she spaced out. It was kind of funny. Apparently the story changed a lot of things she'd understood, or had been keeping on hold as possibly understood, and her brain overloaded.

But, and perhaps I haven't been hanging around the right people, I haven't seen it used to uncover core truths. There's constant investigation, but if there were any staging points of somewhat completed understanding, I never heard about it in a way I could understand. The constant investigation-ness makes all conclusions halfway not worth listening to.

And I'm aware of viewing it that way only because the constancy of investigation undermines a crucial step in my process: from time to time I have to say XYZ is true, and act on it (and then learn something new), and if XYZ is supposed to be question again *before* I act, I don't get to act.

^ presumably a constant J vs P issue, but perhaps with some added piquancy if it's Ne P vs Ni J since in theory we're both working the same turf.

Let me rephrase:

The following quality is often attributed to Ne:

spontaneously seeing/making/understanding connections (puns, metaphors, similes, etc.) between various objects in the real world right in front of your face

So, if an Ni-dom/aux is very good at seeing/making/understanding connections (puns, metaphors, similes, etc.) between various objects in the real world right in front of their face, do you believe this behavior more likely shows usage of Ni, or something else (Se+Ni? Ni+Te?)?

There's always that damn question of whether various functions team together and then look like one other function, or whether a person is really just using that other function (in this case, an INTJ using Ne).

The self-proclaimed Jungian structuralists and what not (like yourself) always seem to argue that it must be a combination of functions mimicking the behavior of another singular function, and then people who don't care to hold so rigidly to strict MBTI doctrine (assuming, of course, that this means what you've called "Jungian structuralism") are willing to consider the notion that maybe they just use the other function (i.e., Ne in this case).

That seems to be a practical (or theoretical?) hurdle that we just can't seem to get around, no matter how much we argue.

Unless you could actually empirically test for functional usage (which, based on that "Mindframes" stuff I posted about earlier, you might actually be able to do), I don't see how this debate would ever be resolved.

Anyway, your thoughts on whether that INTJ is actually using Ne or not...
 

InvisibleJim

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Anyway, your thoughts on whether that INTJ is actually using Ne or not...

The INTJ is using Ni-Te to 'fake Ne' but note that an INTJ will slip into periods of internal cognitition in conversation as they grasp with the subject.

I was recently asked a question regarding what I would like my house to look like by an xNTP. We chatted away for 20 minutes. Eventually I returned to the question and said 'Oh yeah the house will have, a,b,c....x,y,z'. They were like 'wow you were still thinking about that?'. The answer was yes, in the breaks of the other conversation. The ideas come as quickly to anyone regardless of dominant functions; but an Ni user will not feel the idea is well enough constructed until they are comfortable with the external environments response to put this forward.

Note that Ni lives and loves idea detail from internal cognition and categorizes ideas based upon internal benchmarks and iconology (with a little bit of Te to fill in the edges for an INTJ). It presents ideas to the world as 'complete'. For the INTJ engaging with Te helps them to feel less threatened by the external world and therefore become less defensive by seeing that their internal model not fitting the external world is 'just fine'.

Ne loves ideas in the purest external sense, wishing not to clutter them with over-realization. It engages with the world to exchange ideas to and fro with other people and will push through an idea boundary to apply other pure ideas to create unique realisations. Ne doesn't attempt to complete ideas, leaving that for later and for an internal aspect to deal with. The Ne user jumps into the world and becomes extrovert as there is no barrier between their internal model and the external world like an Ni user.
 

Zarathustra

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...or he could just be using Ne.

(Not sure if you got this, but I'm well aware of the Ni+Te "masking" as Ne theory; I just don't think there's proof for either notion, and Ne usage by the INTJ could just as likely be the reality.)
 

InvisibleJim

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...or he could just be using Ne.

(Not sure if you got this, but I'm well aware of the Ni+Te "masking" as Ne theory; I just don't think there's proof for either notion, and Ne usage by the INTJ could just as likely be the reality.)

There generally isn't proof involved in typology. Just a warning; it's all empirical. Socionics gives INTJ's a big fat Ne at the front, but its a kind of half INTP/INTJ hybrid cognitively. Socionic's focus is on how people look 'externally' to the viewer while merging this with internal dissonance.

For example, in Socionics I test and appear as INTP due to internal dissonance 'Ni leading internally and externally' rather than the Jung/MBTI approach of defining the internal mind.

People assuming I am Se when I talk technically and get out a whiteboard; but in effect I'm Te'ing before their eyes and doing a mind screen dump and I get very pissy when people try to mess up the chain of thought as it is running; an alarming Ni tendancy. Another thing is that I won't talk about things that do not interest me at all and that interest is my comfort zone of existing knowledge. I'll just say 'I have no opinion on the matter'. Not so Se/Ne after all.
 
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