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'Ambiverts' - relative strength of primary and secondary function

annnie

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Hi all

Apologies if this has come up before on the forum, I was not able to immediately find it. Something came up on facebook :blush: and made me think of it.

Some people identify as 'ambivert' ... xNFJ etc.

As the E/I preference determines which is the dominant function and which is the secondary (e.g. in my case ENTP and INTP both have Ne/Ti or Ti/Ne, same two functions) they are basically 'the same' other than this - so if you identify as ambivert then 'logically' they are of equal strength? Or is there still a preference for one or the other? (in which case I presume - though don't know - that it would be possible to identify as E or I?)

As I have put in another post - used to consider myself INTP (came out as such on the test and 'thought' myself to be an introvert based on the conventional (mis)conception that Es are the 'party' types and Is 'read books' (etc)) but realised a few years ago this was not right and am actually a pretty strong E with the definition that it is 'external influence' etc. In parallel - used to think Ti was my dominant function (and used to use it primarily) but Ne has "overtaken" it to the extent that it is now the dominant one that I use all the time... so this seems pretty clear to me :shrug:

Apparently I am wrong in thinking this though, does anyone know better?
 

INTP

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x means that they are not sure if they are i or e, not that they would be both types..
 

annnie

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x means that they are not sure if they are i or e, not that they would be both types..

Oh, ok - maybe my mistake in conflating 'x' and 'ambivert' ... some people do definitely identify as "bang in the middle" (vs "not knowing") though, it is these I am asking about.
 

INTP

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those who are close to middle usually have hard time seeing what type are they. it doesent mean that they would be a mix of entp and intp for example, they are either intp with Ne nearly as strong as Ti(or Ti nearly as low as Ne) or entp with nearly as strong Ti as their Ne is.
 

annnie

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nearly as strong as

Interesting, so you are saying it is not possible to have 'exactly' (in as much as it can be measured / distinguished) equal preference for each?
 

Amargith

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I had the same problem, where I identified as an xnfp. Eventually, when looking at the roles your functions play in your life, I figured out that it is in fact Ne that gets me out of tough spots and that I'll use to figure out how to get around obstacles...not Fi. And it's not Ne I use to show my love and care for others..it's Fi. While both are about equally strong (I reign in my Ne coz I find it important to use Fi properly), I concluded I am an ENFP, from the role those functions play in the way I go about life.

The role doesn't indicate the strenght of the function, just the way in which you use said function. Whether that function is well developed or not is really irrelevant.
 

INTP

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Interesting, so you are saying it is not possible to have 'exactly' (in as much as it can be measured / distinguished) equal preference for each?

of course they cant be equally strong.

intp profile said:
Here is an aspect where INTP and ENTP types differ strongly. The latter, with dominant iNtuition, are much more driven by shaping the world according to their ideas, ie. thinking supports and subordinates doing. For the INTP, doing supports and subordinates thinking.
 

skylights

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i'm with INTP on this one... the point of MBTI is to put yourself on either side of a dividing line. one is simply going to fit better than the other - and there can certainly be time periods in your life where you rely on either function more, but over the course of your life, one is still going to be a lead and one a support. even if it's not obvious that the lead is a lead for a while - the aux is the "supporting parent", after all: it can be overprotective, and drown out the dom. but an ENFP mainly using Fi will be different than an INFP mainly using Fi. the former may seem like INFP on the surface, but they will not "feel" like an INFP below. they will not share all the motivations of INFP. take it from me; that's what drove me to this site.

i've always tested as INFP and upon learning the functions, thought i was Fi dom - and i definitely did utilize Fi a ton when i was little, but even looking back, Ne has always been my best function. it's gotten me out of the trouble Fi has gotten me into, lol. love Fi though i do, i've had such control over Ne that it was easy to assume that it was secondary and not just automatic. but as the awesome people on this forum pointed out, i am not an INFP. i am simply a quieter ENFP. just like you, all those dumb "are you the life of the party" questions were throwing me off.

so i'm sure it's possible to have functions that are all but equal in strength, and i'm sure it's possible to have a huge personality shift in life. but i think that, like you and i, almost everyone will end up falling to one side or the other.

i believe that this is because your top functions are cemented, barring a huge psychological change, pretty early in life. it's kind of a snowball effect. you like/use one function the most, so you use it the best, so you use it the most... but of course you can't only just use one, so you develop the rest, too. it's hard to break away from that pattern later in life because you've built a whole paradigm around those top functions, you know? someone who sees through Fi is pretty unlikely to switch to Ti anytime soon. someone who's typically relied on Fe in a crisis is unlikely to let Ni take over. what i think is more likely is for someone who is a quiet E, a social I, etc. to "come into their own" later in life. when we're children we're more subject to our environments and our parents' guidance. but when it comes time for us to cement our identities on our own... that first preference is more likely to come forward.

and i think that what is important is to think about is which function is your "driving force". i seek connection and it's like a holy idea to me. all is one, everything is connected. the Fi doms i know seem to take Fi similarly. internal experience and evaluation is the most important to them. both ideas are important to both of us, of course, but one rings more true. plus since I/E orders how the rest of your functions proceed, it's much more useful to try to place yourself on either side of the line.

this is my take on it thus far, at least. :yes:
 

annnie

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of course they cant be equally strong.

Strange - I respect what you are saying but we obviously see it completely differently in concept then - given a choice between (say) "taking in information" and "acting on information" (or however you define N/S and F/T type functions respectively) as the main M.O. - I could see that 'one' could have an about equal preference for each depending on circumstance, - but reason for posting the thread was to get input from others, so totally realise I could be wrong (I usually am - am constantly being corrected by co-workers on 'obvious' things....!) :cry:

Had a similar discussion with someone yesterday as to 'free will vs determinism' (that old chestnut) the solution to which seems obvious to me.. so no stranger to being pwn3d :newwink:
 

redacted

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My type is currently xNTP because I can't really figure out if I prefer Ti or Ne. My understanding has always been what you said about function usage.

But I think different people have different understandings of having an x in your type. (I just think they're wrong. or at least have an unnecessarily convoluted understanding of MBTI.)


edit: as for whether it's possible for them to be of equal strength -- I guess it's possible... it kinda doesn't matter anyway -- MBTI is a descriptive system. If using I or E to describe someone isn't useful, then just use the last three letters. It should just be about descriptive usefulness -- it's not so set in stone as everyone thinks, and doesn't really imply anything about ability. Someone who argues strongly that you CAN'T BE AN X is probably just using the system incorrectly.
 

Jaguar

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so you are saying it is not possible to have 'exactly' equal preference for each?

It most certainly is possible.

Not only can you have your first two functions equally developed, it is so common, Jung's colleague Marie-Louise von Franz resorted to typing people after she and the client felt they had figured out the INFERIOR function. It was her trademark, so to speak, typing people in that manner since it was nearly impossible to ascertain a person's Dominant function due to its likelihood of being confused with the Aux function.


"Many people, moreover, develop two superior functions so well that is very difficult to say whether the person is a thinking-intuitive type or an intuitive type with good thinking. But does the intuitive-thinking person suffer more from banging his head on sensation facts, or from feeling problems? Here you can decide which is the first and which is the well-developed second function." (Lectures on Jung's Typology p.21.)
 

Zarathustra

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of course they cant be equally strong.

:rolleyes:

It most certainly is possible.

Not only can you have your first two functions equally developed, it is so common, Jung's colleague Marie-Louise von Franz resorted to typing people after she and the client felt they had figured out the INFERIOR function.

I agree with Jaguar, here.

The dom and aux function can be essentially equal in strength.

I mean, what's the meaningful difference between one function being one scintilla more developed than another anyway?

My E/I dichotomy is extremely close, but I do identify more with INTJ than ENTJ.

Call me an xNTJ or INTJ, I could really give a shit.

Don't call me an ENTJ, though.

:jew:

"Many people, moreover, develop two superior functions so well that is very difficult to say whether the person is a thinking-intuitive type or an intuitive type with good thinking. But does the intuitive-thinking person suffer more from banging his head on sensation facts, or from feeling problems? Here you can decide which is the first and which is the well-developed second function." (Lectures on Jung's Typology p.21.)

I think this method seems a little bit problematic...

What if both the tertiary and inferior are reasonably well-developed as well?

I would think that, with greater balance between the dominant and auxiliary functions, that you would also find greater balance between the tertiary and inferior functions, due to the fact that the dom loop and aux loop would lead to the respective development of the tert and inferior.
 

Jaguar

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What if both the tertiary and inferior are reasonably well-developed as well?

That would mean T types couldn't bash F types and N types couldn't bash S types.
What could you possibly be thinking? We might have a peaceful forum without bigotry. Perish the thought!

Actually, my own opinion on the matter is quite flexible. Jung and von Franz pretty much held the same opinion of the inferior function in that it was/is the 'demon child', so to speak, that gets us to spin our heads around like Linda Blair in the Exorcist. While I agree that is indeed a possibility for some people, I have never been one to take a single theory and apply it to all people across the board. There are many opinions and theories out there and if there were 100 theories, I would say pick the one that you think works best for you, not for all. The goal here is the growth of your own personal potential.

So, do I think you can go further and confuse even more functions for your Dom? Yep. The reason Jung's types read like caricatures, rather than real people, is we are not one-sided individuals. His types are based on nothing more than a single function. If that's all we were, as humans, the pathology would be overwhelming and we would soon find ourselves in a straight-jacket. I think the possibilities for healthy function development are far more numerous than we have ever discussed in this forum. But then maybe now we can finally spark those types of discussions, ay?

By the way, Highlander asked me in his thread if the inferior could be confused for the Dom. The answer is yes. The inferior can come off so strongly that the person themselves can actually feel it is more "real," as well as those who are observing the individual.

Cheers, Z.
 

redacted

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I think this method seems a little bit problematic...

What if both the tertiary and inferior are reasonably well-developed as well?

I would think that, with greater balance between the dominant and auxiliary functions, that you would also find greater balance between the tertiary and inferior functions, due to the fact that the dom loop and aux loop would lead to the respective development of the tert and inferior.

Well it's obviously going to be harder to type someone with balanced preferences. That doesn't mean the methodology is flawed, it just means some people are harder to type than others.
 

Zarathustra

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That would mean T types couldn't bash F types and N types couldn't bash S types.
What could you possibly be thinking? We might have a peaceful forum without bigotry. Perish the thought!

Hey! Don't give up on bigotry so soon!

One could easily still look down on Fs and Ss.

Those functions should still be developed... just after N and T.

:jew:

Actually, my own opinion on the matter is quite flexible. Jung and von Franz pretty much held the same opinion of the inferior function in that it was/is the 'demon child', so to speak, that gets us to spin our heads around like Linda Blair in the Exorcist. While I agree that is indeed a possibility for some people, I have never been one to take a single theory and apply it to all people across the board. There are many opinions and theories out there and if there were 100 theories, I would say pick the one that you think works best for you, not for all. The goal here is the growth of your own personal potential.

So, do I think you can go further and confuse even more functions for your Dom? Yep. The reason Jung's types read like caricatures, rather than real people, is we are not one-sided individuals. His types are based on nothing more than a single function. If that's all we were, as humans, the pathology would be overwhelming and we would soon find ourselves in a straight-jacket. I think the possibilities for healthy function development are far more numerous than we have ever discussed in this forum.

I agree with all of this.

By the way, Highlander asked me in his thread if the inferior could be confused for the Dom. The answer is yes. The inferior can come off so strongly that the person themselves can actually feel it is more "real," as well as those who are observing the individual.

Yeah, I would think the inferior could come off as strongly, but I would assume it would generally be in certain types of situations where that function ought be utilized, like in work, or socializing, etc.

Hell, give me enough beers, and I may just seem like an Se-dom to you...

:cheese:

Cheers, Z.

:cheers:
 

INTP

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"Many people, moreover, develop two superior functions so well that is very difficult to say whether the person is a thinking-intuitive type or an intuitive type with good thinking. (Lectures on Jung's Typology p.21.)

like this quote says, its just very hard to say sometimes when the person is entp or intp..

intp profile said:
Here is an aspect where INTP and ENTP types differ strongly. The latter, with dominant iNtuition, are much more driven by shaping the world according to their ideas, ie. thinking supports and subordinates doing. For the INTP, doing supports and subordinates thinking.

and like this says its either that thinking supports and subordinates doing or other way. when thinking supports and subordinate doing, doing cant support thinking and subordinate thinking, its either way around..

satine put it out quite perfectly, its about what roles the functions play in you, not really how strong are they, strength of the function(or what strength some test gives you) can and will vary during your life, but your type doesent change because of that.

Also do remember that i/e in mbti doesent mean same as introvert/extrovert in normal talk, in mbti(and ntp) its about if you pay attention to your surroundings or your inner world, in normal talk its basically if you are active towards your external world or not and this is completely different from mbti i/e. Also do remember that Ne happens inside of your head, even tho the intuitions come from the external world.

My Ne is almost as strong as my Ti and i got a entp friend whos Ti is nearly as strong as his Ne. At times i act more extroverted than he does, but that doesent make me entp and him an intp. He used to think that he is an intp(when i first told him about mbti) because he doesent feel very extroverted(in a traditional sense) and he has enjoyed doing things much alone when he was a kid, but what he did was when he was a kid was build all these machines and stuff like that, doing that kind of things he was actually using his Ne even tho he felt like an introvert. He is still pretty introverted(in a traditional sense) but hes doing things like programming and those kind of things that he does alone, but that are still aimed to the external world. Also i can notice that when he was figuring out an mind puzzle i had, he went testing and trying all kinds of things with it, while figuring out how it works. When i did the puzzle, i stopped all the time and thought how it might go. Even with out very different approach to it we both worked it out about the same speed.

People learn the basics and stop thinking that there can be some x types that are actually types instead people just not being able to tell what type are they.
 

redacted

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^ But what does subordinate really mean tangibly? It might be clear in cases that are obvious anyway. But I don't feel like it's clear in my own case whether Thinking drives the ship or Intuition. Maybe they're just copilots. Sure, one might have a good day or a good year even. But even if it's 55/45, that still doesn't seem like obvious subordination.
 

Domino

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As a very very borderline ENFJ/INFJ, I consider myself ambiverted, but like Satine, I find one function may edge out the other in day to day things. My Fe is the default. The illustrious Udog has pointed out that I have an Fe mode and an Ni mode, and I think that this speaks to my E/I blur.
 

Zarathustra

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^ But what does subordinate really mean tangibly? It might be clear in cases that are obvious anyway. But I don't feel like it's clear in my own case whether Thinking drives the ship or Intuition. Maybe they're just copilots. Sure, one might have a good day or a good year even. But even if it's 55/45, that still doesn't seem like obvious subordination.

Exactly.
 

BlueGray

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those who are close to middle usually have hard time seeing what type are they. it doesent mean that they would be a mix of entp and intp for example, they are either intp with Ne nearly as strong as Ti(or Ti nearly as low as Ne) or entp with nearly as strong Ti as their Ne is.

What about ,INTP with stronger Ne than Ti, or ENTP with stronger Ti than Ne?
 
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