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Rick Reilly, Michael Jordan, and My Spite for Fe

Jeffster

veteran attention whore
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sx
I don't like Rick Reilly because he's a douche.

Truth.

Also, I don't even like Michael Jordan and I thought his speech was awesome. Screw the whiney, pissant media hacks.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
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Fe: The main function no one appreciates until it's not being used.

... you'd be surprised at how much good Fe has been benefiting you, once it's been taken away.

Fake social cohesion is over-rated...

Welp, this is one of those cases where it's insanely useful to separate what the function actually means from its potential results, because functions can manifest themselves in a wide variety of ways.

THAT is true.
 

KDude

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ESTPs have Fe, but they tend to limit their collectivism and motivating attitude to those close, I think. I wouldn't knock it. And the thing is, people (outsiders, I mean) complain about ESTP athletes as well. "Too much".. "too loud".. blah blah.. but I think some of what they're turned off by is Fe in this case. And you could hardly accuse someone like Ray Lewis of not being individualistic.

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd3sNvKC_jU].[/youtube]
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
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ESTPs have Fe, but they tend to limit their collectivism and motivating attitude to those close, I think. I wouldn't knock it. And the thing is, people (outsiders, I mean) complain about ESTP athletes as well. "Too much".. "too loud".. blah blah.. but I think some of what they're turned off by is Fe in this case. And you could hardly accuse someone like Ray Lewis of not being individualistic.

Many athletes = ESTP =/= all athletes = ESTP.

I'm pretty sure Ray Lewis is an ESFP.

Now A-Rod: there's your classic ESTP athlete.
 

Zarathustra

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FWIW, I suspect Reilly is NFJ and Simmons ESFP (pulled those out of my ass after thinking about it for a grand total of approximately 15 seconds).

Bill Simmons as an ESFP might be the worst typing I've ever seen...

He is about the most obvious ENTP I can think of:

- constantly making brilliant, accurate, and insightful connections between athletes/aspects of one sport and another, and one sports era and another (Ne).
- constantly making extremely long-winded, extremely entertaining articles which are obviously based on his own subjective, internal logic (Ti).
- very congenial (and somewhat fake): he's notorious for tearing certain athletes and coaches apart (and accurately, most of the time), but, if he ever actually meets them face-to-face, he (admittedly) throws it all out the window and totally sucks up to them (Fe).
- he's always reminiscing about the past, and significant moments in his sports-watching life, and has a phenomenal memory about these events and statistics (Si).

He's literally the most blatant ENTP I can think of.

And a rather highly developed one at that.

Also, I believe Rick Reilly is subconsciously racist, so I wouldn't rule out the possibility that his perception of the speech was influenced by that.

:wtf:

Damn, throwing the race card just like that?

But I guess it makes sense, considering some of his fellow xNFJs... (
hitler.gif
).

:newwink:

That said, where you perceive Fe users to be insincere, to me many Fi users come off as not just rude, but downright mean. They sometimes knowingly and gratuitously hurt people's feelings for no reason other than candor, and often seem deeply self-centered.

Yeah, I can agree with this.

But why should I care how you feel?

:cheese:

I know many Fi users, both online and IRL, who do not give those impressions, but to me, the "sins" of Fe pale in comparison to the ugliest aspects of Fi.

*ahem* *cough cough*

hitler.gif
 

KDude

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Ray Lewis an ESFP.. :thinking: Maybe.. That's pretty interesting though.. usually I think of ESFP athletes to be like Magic, Lebron (kind of upbeat, less edgy, more warmth to those guys). I started thinking recently that Ali was ESFP though (seemed to be more Te), and he isn't all that different than Lewis in attitude.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
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Ray Lewis an ESFP.. :thinking: Maybe.. That's pretty interesting though.. usually I think of ESFP athletes to be like Magic, Lebron (kind of upbeat, less edgy, more warmth to those guys). I started thinking recently that Ali was ESFP though (seemed to be more Te), and he isn't all that different than Lewis in attitude.

I would think the edgier, more self-oriented athletes would be those with Fi...

Jordan, Kobe, Bode Miller would all be good examples.

Those who are more smooth, congenial and fan-friendly (and more vacuous) would more likely be the Fe-users...

Lebron, Beckham, A-Rod.

I don't see how Lebron's decision to "go with the group" in Miami could be seen as an Fi over Fe decision...

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-FjTk4KZBc&feature=related"]Fi vs. Fe (skip to 2:00)[/YOUTUBE]
Jordan said:
"There's no way, with hindsight, I would've ever called up Larry, called up Magic, and said, 'Hey, look, let's get together and play on one team... In all honesty, I was trying to beat those guys."

Even LeBron's chalk-throwing thing at the beginning of games is always a group-oriented event...

Barkley, on the other hand, would probably be another good example of an Fi-user athlete (probably an ESFP):

Barkley said:
"He'll never be Jordan. This clearly takes him out of the conversation. He can win as much as he wants to. There would have been something honorable about staying in Cleveland and trying to win it as 'The Man' ... LeBron, if he would've in Cleveland, and if he could've got a championship there, it would have been over the top for his legacy, just one in Cleveland. No matter how many he wins in Miami, it clearly is Dwyane Wade's team."

Magic is an interesting question... I've always been a huge fan, but not quite sure what his type would be...

He could be an Fe-user (he's so fucking congenial), or he could be an ESFP.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
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I've gone out of my way in multiple threads to argue that Kobe was Fi, so it's nice I don't need to now. Heh. I agree though. On the other hand, I think some less edgier types still may be Fi too. Magic, like I said. Penny Hardaway another (he kind of reminds of Magic).

I am almost positive that Kobe is an ISTJ.

Derek Fisher (my favorite player) too.

I'm not sure about Jordan -- all I know is that he's an Fi-user.

Bird seems like a definite Fi-user as well.

The reason why I could see Magic being an Fi-user is basically because of his dual with Bird:

Magic said:
"We didn’t think about it ’cause that’s not what we were about. From college, I was trying to figure out how to beat Larry Bird.”
 

KDude

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bah, i deleted that post.. figured it was superfluous :newwink:

I've seen some say ISTJ.. perhaps that's right. I actually thought ISFP, but it's no denying that his Te is more noticable than a typical ISFP's inferior Te. Sometimes when he speaks though, he sounds like an SP.

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMFjg7Hdsys]/[/youtube]
 

burymecloser

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Bill Simmons as an ESFP might be the worst typing I've ever seen...
:rolleyes: Congratulations, that is the 100,000th time someone on this site has used that exact phrase.

Zarathustra said:
He is about the most obvious ENTP I can think of
I'll defer to your typing, since I think he's full of shit and don't read his crap. I'm sure you're in a much better position to judge.

Zarathustra said:
- constantly making brilliant, accurate, and insightful connections between athletes/aspects of one sport and another, and one sports era and another (Ne).
Characterising anything from Simmons as "brilliant", "accurate", or "insightful" makes me seriously doubt your understanding of those terms. I suspect Simmons is lightly retarded.

Zarathustra said:
- very congenial (and somewhat fake): he's notorious for tearing certain athletes and coaches apart (and accurately, most of the time), but, if he ever actually meets them face-to-face, he (admittedly) throws it all out the window and totally sucks up to them (Fe).
Again, if you can put up with his bullshit enough to read it, I'll defer to your typing, but Simmons has never struck me as a Fe-user. I'm very skeptical that he's Ti/Fe. Simmons is way too much of an asshole to be Fe, and I don't think he even realises what a complete asshole he is. He's also incapable of objectivity, which IMO is a critical, indispensable element of Ti.

Your description above doesn't seem Fe to me. It honestly reminds me a lot more of some extraverted Fi-users I know, who act really friendly in person and shit-talk people when they're not around. I'm not sure that sort of behavior is limited to one type, but at the very least, I'm certain it's not unique to Fe.

Zarathustra said:
Damn, throwing the race card just like that?
Did you want an essay with citations? How much Rick Reilly have you read? Have you noticed that in black-white conflicts, he invariably sides with whoever is white? That he perpetuates all the worst stereotypes about admirable, hard-working whites and lazy, athletically gifted minorities? That he is horrified whenever a person of color breaks a white person's record? I'm not saying the guy is Mel Gibson, and I don't believe he's consciously prejudiced, but I think there are clear trends in his writing over a period of well over a decade.

And I'm not sure what you mean by accusing me of "throwing the race card". I have to say, I think it's a very relevant topic in this discussion. If Reilly does harbor unconscious prejudice, it seems very likely that would affect his perception and criticism of Jordan's speech.

Zarathustra said:
*ahem* *cough cough*

hitler.gif
Fine, Rick Reilly is Hitler. And so am I! Sweet heaven, quit Godwin-ing unless you're going to post something beyond a transparent trolling attempt.

Differing Fe/Fi interpretations of Jordan's speech is an interesting topic, but if you're just here to attention-whore yourself, there are plenty of grown-ups for me to talk with on this forum.
 

skylights

i love
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That said, where you perceive Fe users to be insincere, to me many Fi users come off as not just rude, but downright mean. They sometimes knowingly and gratuitously hurt people's feelings for no reason other than candor, and often seem deeply self-centered. I know many Fi users, both online and IRL, who do not give those impressions, but to me, the "sins" of Fe pale in comparison to the ugliest aspects of Fi.

you really had to go there? :devil:

nah, i'm not going to flip out. you said it was a personal opinion after all. i just want to point out --

i'm personally less averse to bad Fi than bad Fe because i kind of understand bad Fi. it can get really fucking annoying, but at least i recognize myself in it. bad Fe on the other hand is disturbing to me because i don't usually see it coming or just don't have any idea how best to react. bad Fi usually makes people pissed off at it, but bad Fe can convince others to gang up on someone. (i'd make the reference, but i think poor godwin would roll in his grave...) bad Fe seems worse to me personally because it can kick my ass. :laugh:

i think that both functions, when "bad", as i'm describing them, are completely self-centered. they both fuck with others to get what they want, and cause harm to both others and the person using them. and bad Fe might want external harmony, but it wants it without consideration of how it might actually be hurting people. bad Fi is the opposite - doesn't give a shit about external harmony as long as it's satisfied. so both end up hurting people AND themself, and, oddly enough, they can both end up looking either very people-pleasing or like complete jackassery. or both! as to how much total negativity each one engenders, who knows. that's so subjective it's practically impossible to judge.

Fe: The main function no one appreciates until it's not being used.

... you'd be surprised at how much good Fe has been benefiting you, once it's been taken away.

agree

*ahem* *cough cough*

hitler.gif

:rofl1:

excellent usage, you win an internet
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
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Messages
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I'll defer to your typing, since I think he's full of shit and don't read his crap.

Interesting how you arrive at this next point then...

Characterising anything from Simmons as "brilliant", "accurate", or "insightful" makes me seriously doubt your understanding of those terms.

Characterising everything someone writes as not brilliant, not accurate, and not insightful, when you admittedly do not and have not read much of their writing, makes me seriously doubt your understanding of accumulating proper evidence.

I suspect Simmons is lightly retarded.

I'm sure Bill Simmons is crying himself to sleep right now.

Again, if you can put up with his bullshit enough to read it, I'll defer to your typing...

This may be the only part of your entire post where you are on the right track.

I'm very skeptical that he's Ti/Fe. He's also incapable of objectivity, which IMO is a critical, indispensable element of Ti.

:laugh:

Ti = objectivity?

Are you kidding me?

Somebody please get this guy an MBTI manual...

Simmons is way too much of an asshole to be Fe, and I don't think he even realises what a complete asshole he is...

Your description above doesn't seem Fe to me.

Then apparently you don't understand Fe, especially tert-Fe in ENTPs.

Fe-users are notorious for this kind of behavior, and tert-Fe users in particular are notorious for expressing a strange dichotomy between being assholes to those not "in the group", and being desperately in need of approval from those who are "in the group". When Simmons writes from afar, these people aren't in the group; when he actually meets them, all of a sudden they are.

How much Rick Reilly have you read?

Not much.

Those I have read are lame, and he lost me with the one I posted.

Have you noticed that in black-white conflicts, he invariably sides with whoever is white?

No. See above.

Fine, Rick Reilly is Hitler. And so am I! Sweet heaven, quit Godwin-ing unless you're going to post something beyond a transparent trolling attempt.

Learn to take a joke.

Differing Fe/Fi interpretations of Jordan's speech is an interesting topic, but if you're just here to attention-whore yourself, there are plenty of grown-ups for me to talk with on this forum.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

:hi:
 

burymecloser

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Characterising everything someone writes as not brilliant, not accurate, and not insightful, when you admittedly do not and have not read much of their writing, makes me seriously doubt your understanding of accumulating proper evidence.
Do you have any sense of irony? You bitched at me for opining that Reilly is racist, then admitted that you haven't read enough of his material to know. You even urged me to "learn to take a joke", but when I swipe at Simmons you freak out. Man, that guy has a legion of weirdly devoted nuthuggers.

I'm sure he appreciates your loyalty.

Zarathustra said:
I'm sure Bill Simmons is crying himself to sleep right now.
I doubt it, but you probably are. Shit, hero-worship much?

Zarathustra said:
I'll defer to your typing
This may be the only part of your entire post where you are on the right track.
Boy, you can't take anything graciously, can you?

Zarathustra said:
Ti = objectivity?

Are you kidding me?
Ti wants facts, logic, wants things to make sense. Simmons wants things to conform what he already believes, and he'll take the shortest path to get there. He has minimal or sloppy evidence for much of what he believes, and that's totally at odds with the precision you usually see from a Ti-dom or -aux.

Go ahead, really sell me on Simmons as Ti/Fe. I don't often read his pieces, so I recognise that my read could be off, and I'm open to changing my mind in the face of persuasive evidence.

Zarathustra said:
Then apparently you don't understand Fe, especially tert-Fe in ENTPs.

Fe-users are notorious for this kind of behavior, and tert-Fe users in particular are notorious for expressing a strange dichotomy between being assholes to those not "in the group", and being desperately in need of approval from those who are "in the group". When Simmons writes from afar, these people aren't in the group; when he actually meets them, all of a sudden they are.
I'll have to take your word on this; I certainly don't know enough about tert-Fe users to dispute it. I remain skeptical that this behavior is unique to Fe. Being an ass-clown is associated with all of the major functions, IME.

Zarathustra said:
How much Rick Reilly have you read?
Not much.

Those I have read are lame, and he lost me with the one I posted.
He used to be okay. That was a long time ago.

Zarathustra said:
Fine, Rick Reilly is Hitler. And so am I!
Learn to take a joke.
Learn to recognise one. :rolleyes:
 

highlander

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I was really hoping for more substantive discussion on potential negatives of Fe. Note again, that I'm a fan.
 
G

Glycerine

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I think that you actually have a fairly balanced view of what negative Fe may look like based on some of your posts.
 

highlander

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I think that you actually have a fairly balanced view of what negative Fe may look like based on some of your posts.

Thank you but it seems like there is more. I saw something about Fe being used to "gang up on a person" or Orobas who mentioned something about "seeing the Fe warnings before things come crashing down". I don't understand these things.
 

Jaguar

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Thank you but it seems like there is more. I saw something about Fe being used to "gang up on a person" or Orobas who mentioned something about "seeing the Fe warnings before things come crashing down". I don't understand these things.

Then go buy one of many books available to teach yourself the functions.
Fe doesn't sprout little legs, and arms, and "gang up on people."
 

highlander

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Then go buy one of many books available to teach yourself the functions.
Fe doesn't sprout little legs, and arms, and "gang up on people."
I have several. Have read many but not all. Am getting the idea.
 
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