Jung's definitions of I and E

[ReflecTcelfeR]

So I'm reading some work by Carl Jung. The book is titled Psychological Types. I just got started into it, but he begins with the orienation of the functions (I and E). His explanation of an extrovert is defined as the thinking of how the object relates to you and the intraverted as relating an object to yourself. By this definition being an extrovert and intravert is ultimately dependant on how much you value the object. I know we have tendencies towards one side than the other, I suppose it just makes me doubt whether I am an 'I' or an 'E'. I suppose it isn't that bad of a situation, I was just wanting to hear some other opinions about Jung's definitions. Any insight is greatly appreciated.

 

[Lady_X]

how the object relates to you and the intraverted as relating an object to yourself.

i'm sorry but what's the difference?

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

I may have written that wrong! Lemme check. Extraverted is explained as (I should've just did this in the first place) the object having more value than the person, and Introversion as the person having more value than the object. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Lady_X]

hmmm....can the object be a person? what's an example?

 

[Ginkgo]

hmmm....can the object be a person? what's an example?

A person falls under the category of object.

 

[Chloe]

i'm sorry but what's the difference?

Fe: looks at the book shelf and thinks "how will this book fit onto this book shelf"

Fi: looks at the book shelf and thinks "where is the perfect place to put my book in this shelf?"

the same for I vs. E. in this example : you= book, shelf = object

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

hmmm....can the object be a person? what's an example?

I thought about that as well. I suppose so, I mean technically we are objects in some contexts. Examples... I'll use one from the book! He mentions two people from near the beginning of recorded history, Tertullian and Origen. Both of these men were extremely dedicated to the church, however they showed this in extreme ways. Tertullian was gung ho about Christianity, but as the concept of Christianity changed he began to withdraw and stick with his own personal idea. Jung tells us that this is an example of an extreme introvert and explains that "...Through the 'sacrificium intellectus' [The Sacrifice of the Intellect] the way of purely intellectual development was closed to him; it forced him to recognize the irrational dynamism of his soul as the foundation of his being..." He cut himself from the very thing that he lived for in order to obtains his own ideals, which makes him more important than the object (his religion). Accordingly Origen embraced the church in every way possible and castrated himself so that he would not be distracted (sexually) to his work. He did all this in order to embrace Christianity even more, thus making the object have greater value making him an Extravert.

That was long-winded. Did this make sense? I haven't explained this to anyone yet so it's pretty choppy I imagine.

 

[Lady_X]

hmm...it makes some sense...but like what chloe said how does that work for an extraverted fi person.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Hmmmm, to be honest I don't know, I haven't gotten that far into the book yet, but if you're up to it we can try to sort it out and see if we are right?

 

[Chloe]

hmm...it makes some sense...but like what chloe said how does that work for an extraverted fi person.

extraverted Fi person leads with Se or Ne... but I only tried to explain that it's how you define yourself: you define yourself by outside world (e) or outside world by yourself (i).

 

[Lady_X]

it's interesting tho...i mean i get the idea that an extravert draws energy from outside of our self so we're placing value...out there...rather than in here...in a sense...but...not really...i mean...fi is about the individual...the core...so i'm confused...

but sorry not the point...what are you asking? if the extravert values outside objects more? hmm...damn...i don't know. :/

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

hmm...it makes some sense...but like what chloe said how does that work for an extraverted fi person.

By extraverted do you mean ENFP? In the general description Fi is said to devalue the object (as it is introverted) and then the said object is a catalyst for the feelings that one gets from looking at the object. This would add the perceiving aspect, whether it be S or N.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

it's interesting tho...i mean i get the idea that an extravert draws energy from outside of our self so we're placing value...out there...rather than in here...in a sense...but...not really...i mean...fi is about the individual...the core...so i'm confused...

but sorry not the point...what are you asking? if the extravert values outside objects more? hmm...damn...i don't know. :/

It's weird though because it's not even necessarily that the Extravert draws energy from the outer world, but just about a specific object in particular. Technically you can be introverted and extroverted about half of everything. It's the value that you put into each object specifically (these are things in the outer world), but the fluidity that this brings to the surface is just interesting because it means that to one object you might be an INFP and to others you are ENFP.

I also believe that I will contain all my thoughts about this book (to it's completion and beyond) here so if you feel like checking up as I go, this is where you'll find it.

 

[Lady_X]

By extraverted do you mean ENFP? In the general description Fi is said to devalue the object (as it is introverted) and then the said object is a catalyst for the feelings that one gets from looking at the object. This would add the perceiving aspect, whether it be S or N.

yeah no i know it's a introverted function. i'm sorry i'm not feeling very sharp today but i'm just trying to see if a statement such as that fits..

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

yeah no i know it's a introverted function. i'm sorry i'm not feeling very sharp today but i'm just trying to see if a statement such as that fits..

I don't think it would because no type that is extraverted could lead with an introverted function.

 

[KDude]

^I think some extroverts might be highly balanced though, where it'd seem like an enfp was leading with fi. maybe that's the reason why many enps for example take a lot of time outs and don't always relate to what's happening around them. might be less common to find an esp depend on their auxiliary as much - the world is a playground for them. and they're generally good with facts and details to keep moving, stay in the moment, don't offer ideas that get shunned as much.. it all adds up to a person who can keep on relating to what's outside themselves, speak it's language so to speak, and not have any reason to introspect and fall back on introverted functions/behavior. when they find themselves alone, they end up going nuts. enps don't. they seem to like solitude..like they've grown up being more used to it.

 

[INTP]

hmmm....can the object be a person?

only for rappers

 

[Vamp]

only for rappers

And most men?

His explanation of an extrovert is defined as the thinking of how the object relates to you and the introverted as relating an object to yourself.

Okay, I think I've got a handle on this. The explanation of the extrovert thinking (and the difference between that and the introvert thinking) represents why when most people hear the word "extrovert" they think "self centered attention whore" . At least that's my experience with rather prejudiced introverts but regardless of that, I think the way of relating to the object is what makes people have that perception about extroverts.
The extrovert sees this object and wonders where it fits in their life in a way that orders them first. The introvert see this object and wonder how to relate it to themselves.

Or not. Dammit, that slight difference in word structure in the explanation paints the picture. It makes it clear to me but I can't articulate it or explain but I know what it means. I can feel what it means but I can't explain it.

 

[Aquarelle]

^^Ha, I was thinking the opposite-- that Jung's definition seems to peg the introvert as self-centered!

I like the way Chloe puts it, though - that it's about how you define yourself.

 

[Totenkindly]

Typically, with extroverts, things start externally, ping the extrovert, and the energy is directed back toward the external. This is also why extroverts often are described as thinking and feeling "on the outside" rather than the inside. The internal world exists to inform the outer.

With introverts, the process is reversed. Things are generated in the internal world, are shot out in the environment like radar, then ping back to the introvert, and the energy is used to impact the internal world. The focus is typically the internal world. The external world exists to inform the inner.

This is why extreme introverts are typically internalized (sort of like a tree that goes deep but has no foliage) and extreme extroverts seem to be all foliage but no core. Most people, though aren't extreme and have some degree of both.

Look at Se and Si as an example -- maybe the infamous chair example. Se sees the chair just as it is. Maybe that image of the chair impacts Ti/Fi, but this energy immediate pings back out into the environment and is focused on the chair. The actual image of the chair is the focus of the energy, and the person responds to it. This is also called an "objective" response because the object is external and thus accessible to all in the same form.

Meanwhile, Si typically already has an image of a chair inside. Perception is aimed outward, sees the chair, and data about the chair pings back inside, and the introvert is focused on comparing it to the internal image of the chair. The result might be to decide the external chair is not a good chair, or it could be to update the internal image of the chair to a better one, or something else; but the response is "subjective" because it all happens inside. The focus is to somehow impact the interior world of the introvert.

Extroverts tend to focus on improving/fixing the exterior world, the exterior world directs them, and energy returns to the exterior world; with introverts, the focus is the interior world, the interior world directs what energy they send out, and the energy is taken back into the interior world.