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How Good Is Sim's Ni Definition?

uumlau

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Also, note that the ESTPs break this correllation of introverts scoring higher than all the extroverts.

From scouring the data, I've noticed that it's the times when the correlations break that are just as important as the times that they hold.

I find it interesting that the N bit does NOT break. It's all Ns at top, and it's all INs at the very top.

The T/F divide appears to make very little difference at all. Even if one "dislikes" this data for suggesting a "superiority" of N, it is quite edifying to note that F's of both "flavors" score very high when they're INFx. Notice that gifted INFPs are very common (over 10%!). Never assume that an INFP is "stupid" due to the "FP"!!! The opposite is the case, in my experience.

It is interesting to see that in the E part of the picture, it's totally dominated by Ne, which isn't entirely unexpected. Even though Ne doms are nominally extroverted, they can be fairly introverted by normal social standards, which makes them "nerds", too.

It is also interesting to note that ESxJ comprises almost 30% of the "normal" population, but are about equivalent to the percentages of the other xSxx "gifted" population. It is possible to interpret this as saying "ESxJ" is the "stupidest" of the types, but another way to interpret it is that people tend to type based on their expected roles in society rather than their real type. If we regard ESxJ as representing "expected roles", then this isn't a sign of the gifted percentages being low, but rather the MBTI test getting too many ESTJ and ESFJ results due to peoples' self-perception being based on society's expectations.
 

Zarathustra

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Which do you prefer:

A) B, C, D, E, F, G, H
B) %, $, #, !, 1, (, ^,

This question brought glee into my soul for some reason.....I actually laughed out loud in happiness...

A) B, C, D, E, F, G, H

:cheese:
 

Zarathustra

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I find it interesting that the N bit does NOT break. It's all Ns at top, and it's all INs at the very top.

Well, personally, I do believe that N is a higher order of thinking than S, so...

This study basically just confirmed my preconceived notions...

The T/F divide appears to make very little difference at all. Even if one "dislikes" this data for suggesting a "superiority" of N, it is quite edifying to note that F's of both "flavors" score very high when they're INFx. Notice that gifted INFPs are very common (over 10%!). Never assume that an INFP is "stupid" due to the "FP"!!! The opposite is the case, in my experience.

Yeah, I think that's one of the most interesting parts of the study, and lends it a great deal of strength.

Some people have argued that IQ tests and thus "giftedness" would be most associated with being an xNTx, but that is clearly not that case.

Furthermore, the study is not at all dominated by just one function, I mean, you get Ti+Ne, Ni+Te, Fi+Ne, and Ni+Fe in the top four spots.

That's some pretty good dispersion... which lends the study credibility, imo.
 

sculpting

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also--what is "gifted"? what practical value, what metric can we establish to show the value of "gifted"?

(The symbols were so much cooler....)
 

Zarathustra

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also--what is "gifted"? what practical value, what metric can we establish to show the value of "gifted"?

I dunno... maybe it's that I was in the GATE program, but there was a very clear difference between my peers in that program and the rest of the students at the school.

In general, you needed to have a 130+ IQ to get into the program.

(The symbols were so much cooler....)

Why did I know you would say that?
 

uumlau

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also--what is "gifted"? what practical value, what metric can we establish to show the value of "gifted"?

That's exactly why I think the ESxJ's score so "low". If "most people" think of themselves as some generic type (ESxJ), because they don't think very deeply at all, it would totally skew the results this way. That is, all of the "smart people" type themselves "well," but that doesn't stop the "not so smart people" from typing themselves poorly, thus skewing all of the results. Heck, I believe it's possible for "stupid INTPs" to self classify as ESFJs because that's what they think they need to be.

So it wouldn't be a misrepresentation of the "gifted" percentages that lead to a poor measurement, but the confusing nature of the questions to those who are not as "gifted."
 

Jaguar

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20,647
I think we all need to get drunk today....

I took this test and it was hysterical as could not map some the questions into T or F....but my choice was always obvious.

My choices were obvious. "BOTH." I didn't even hesitate.

I had no second thoughts about any answers...I have no doubts whatsoever what my answer should be to each of the above-as an adult or as a kid.

I had no second thoughts with the questions I answered. Surely you don't think I couldn't make up my mind? I had zero hesitation.
The answer was "both" for me, because it's true.

Which do you prefer:

A) B, C, D, E, F, G, H
B) %, $, #, !, 1, (, ^,


NEITHER. They both look like uncreative shit. :D
 

Zarathustra

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Messages
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My choices were obvious. "BOTH." I didn't even hesitate.

I had no second thoughts with the questions I answered. Surely you don't think I couldn't make up my mind? I had zero hesitation.
The answer was "both" for me, because it's true.

NEITHER. They both look like uncreative shit. :D

Spoken like a true Jj. :wink:
 

sculpting

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I dunno... maybe it's that I was in the GATE program, but there was a very clear difference between my peers in that program and the rest of the students at the school.

In general, you needed to have a 130+ IQ to get into the program.

ENTJs are hysterical btw....;) I want to smother them in funny symbols for some reason....

Yeah, my ESFP bro and sis both ended up in the gifted program but they kick your ass out if you dont do homework so by high school were in normal programs. My ESTP sis in law was gifted. Her ISTP bro, my ex, was failing everything in high school and robbing guns from people's homes. He has an IQ over 150. He took the SAT after getting picked up from jail , still drunk, at 8 am, and made the highest score in the county in five years.

Thus a bit of concern regarding the Se users....Their IQs may be quite high, but you dont see that as they lead very different life paths, especially when young.
 

Zarathustra

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Yeah, my ESFP bro and sis both ended up in the gifted program but they kick your ass out if you dont do homework...

Not if you're acing the tests...

:party:

Her ISTP bro, my ex, was failing everything in high school and robbing guns from people's homes. He has an IQ over 150. He took the SAT after getting picked up from jail , still drunk, at 8 am, and made the highest score in the county in five years.

Thus a bit of concern regarding the Se users....Their IQs may be quite high, but you dont see that as they lead very different life paths, especially when young.

Very interesting anecdote.
 

sculpting

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Very interesting anecdote.

^^I tell purty stories! Just for my favorite INTJs who get driven insane by my Si :D

He comes from a family of rocket scientists and mensa members. He is now a tattoo artist and makes more money than me.
 

highlander

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The whole idea of being perceived as "gifted" disturbs me in one sense, particularly given the statistics above, because it is biasing people to value certain types of intelligence over others, such as N vs S. On the other hand, the practical application of this is getting those "gifted" children into gifted programs which means they will be with people who are gifted in similar ways which I think is helpful. The typical grade school is very heavily SJ influenced. The teachers are SJ and the instruction is tailored to sensors. Many intuitives feel like they are in an alien world being taught by aliens. So in that respect, education tailored to gifted students serves a purpose by allowing education to be tailored for the audience. In college of course, this is typically reversed with there being a bias against sensors.

One of the more interesting books I've read over the years is The Bell Curve. The statistics showed that Jewish and Asian people had higher IQs than others. Why would that be? Are they actually any smarter? Is it a culture valuing academic achievement and intelligence? Do particular personality types become more successful in some cultures than others? Are the statistics all completely flawed? I don't know.

What I do know is that understanding personality types and functions help us to understand how people can be gifted in different ways. Yeah, I know, function preference doesn't equal skill. I'm not sure I've ever believed that is true on average however.

In my heart, I don't believe that INTPs or INTJs are any smarter than ESFJs or ESTJs. They're just smart in different ways.
 

KDude

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^Yeah...school wasn't really my thing. I think Jeff Spicoli studied more than I did. Technically, I only have an 8th grade education. Last time I took an IQ test though, I got 116 (119 has been the highest..and these were administered.. not anything on the internet. I've gotten pretty high on those. That's why everyone on the net is a genius, after all). I'm not gifted, but that's not bad considering. I wonder if I would have been "gifted" if I had stuck it though ...If I had more foundation (What is gifted anyways?.. 130?).
 
G

Glycerine

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The whole idea of being perceived as "gifted" disturbs me in one sense, particularly given the statistics above, because it is biasing people to value certain types of intelligence over others, such as N vs S. On the other hand, the practical application of this is getting those "gifted" children into gifted programs which means they will be with people who are gifted in similar ways which I think it helpful. The typical grade school is very heavily SJ influenced. The teachers are SJ and the instruction is tailored to sensors. Many intuitives feel like they are in an alien world being taught by aliens. So in that respect, education tailored to gifted students serves a purpose by allowing education to be tailored for the audience. In college of course, this is typically reversed with there being a bias against sensors.

One of the more interesting books I've read over the years is The Bell Curve. The statistics showed that Jewish and Asian people had higher IQs that others. Why would that be? Are they actually any smarter? Is it a culture valuing academic achievement and intelligence? Do particular personality types become more successful in some cultures than others? Are the statistics all completely flawed? I don't know.

What I do know is that understanding personality types and functions help us to understand how people can be gifted in different ways. Yeah, I know, function preference doesn't equal skill. I'm not sure I've ever believed that is true on average however.

In my heart, I don't believe that INTPs or INTJs are any smarter than ESFJs or ESTJs. They're just smart in different ways.

I agree. My ESFJ dad went to one of the most prestigious colleges in the U.S. (it was actually voted #1 in 2009, I think) but he's hardly what you consider an intellectual. If he ever went on this site, he would like "these people need lives and what a great waste of time..." ESXJs get too much of a bad rap.
 

KDude

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... Yeah, I know SJ's like that. Meanwhile, I'm a dropout, and I consider myself an intellectual (informal though I may be), and don't think you guys are wasting your time necessarily ;)
 

SecondBest

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... Yeah, I know SJ's like that. Meanwhile, I'm a dropout, and I consider myself an intellectual (informal though I may be), and don't think you guys are wasting your time necessarily ;)

Informal intellectuals are the best kind to be. Prestigious universities/colleges and even just a college education in general is overrated imo.
 

Noon

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The whole idea of being perceived as "gifted" disturbs me in one sense, particularly given the statistics above, because it is biasing people to value certain types of intelligence over others, such as N vs S. On the other hand, the practical application of this is getting those "gifted" children into gifted programs which means they will be with people who are gifted in similar ways which I think it helpful. The typical grade school is very heavily SJ influenced. The teachers are SJ and the instruction is tailored to sensors. Many intuitives feel like they are in an alien world being taught by aliens. So in that respect, education tailored to gifted students serves a purpose by allowing education to be tailored for the audience. In college of course, this is typically reversed with there being a bias against sensors.

I wonder if SPs felt a similar way in school? I know I did! My experience of school was really repetitive, non-interactive, and not at all stimulating enough. It didn't help that a lot of the stuff we were being taught wasn't exactly interesting to me. But then again, I have always had trouble with my [short] attention span. As a kid, I sort of thought that if it wasn't engaging enough, it wasn't worth doing. I was in gifted classes until about grade 5, and it was a lot better in terms of interaction and stimulation than normal classes were, but even within the gifted classes, there was a preference for abstract and logical/mathematical intelligence over others. Being that mathematics is my biggest weakness, I hated doing those IQ tests and would rush through them. Looking back at it now, I wish I had taken it all more seriously.

Honestly, I wonder what an SP influenced school would look like.
 

uumlau

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Messages
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The whole idea of being perceived as "gifted" disturbs me in one sense, particularly given the statistics above, because it is biasing people to value certain types of intelligence over others, such as N vs S. On the other hand, the practical application of this is getting those "gifted" children into gifted programs which means they will be with people who are gifted in similar ways which I think it helpful. The typical grade school is very heavily SJ influenced. The teachers are SJ and the instruction is tailored to sensors. Many intuitives feel like they are in an alien world being taught by aliens. So in that respect, education tailored to gifted students serves a purpose by allowing education to be tailored for the audience. In college of course, this is typically reversed with there being a bias against sensors.

One of the more interesting books I've read over the years is The Bell Curve. The statistics showed that Jewish and Asian people had higher IQs that others. Why would that be? Are they actually any smarter? Is it a culture valuing academic achievement and intelligence? Do particular personality types become more successful in some cultures than others? Are the statistics all completely flawed? I don't know.

What I do know is that understanding personality types and functions help us to understand how people can be gifted in different ways. Yeah, I know, function preference doesn't equal skill. I'm not sure I've ever believed that is true on average however.

In my heart, I don't believe that INTPs or INTJs are any smarter than ESFJs or ESTJs. They're just smart in different ways.

I agree 100%.

The main advantage of "gifted" programs is that it brings N-style children into an N-style learning environment more apt to teach them in a way they understand. We shouldn't be surprised that a large fraction of "N" children (and INxx children) elected to enter a "gifted" program.
 
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