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How Good Is Sim's Ni Definition?

uumlau

Happy Dancer
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
5,517
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INTJ
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953
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sp/so
Does the desire for connection-making ever stop for the Ne-user? The answer is: nope.

You guys are always looking to make new connections to better fill out the sphere's surface area.

What's your center?

No one grows from ceasing to allow themselves to know more about what they think they already know.

You always do this, "I know this already"

"Waste of my time"

Do you know what my center is?

Both Ne and Ni keep searching for new knowledge.

Ne keeps looking outward, and finds something cool.

Ni looks at it, admires how cool it is, and starts figuring out more stuff about it.

Ne starts looking outward to find something else cool.

Ni says, "Waitaminute, I'm not done looking at this, yet," and points out a cool aspect of the original thing.

Ne leapfrogs off of the new cool aspect and looks outward for something else.

The Ne attitude tends to assume that the interesting discoveries lie outward.
The Ni attitude tends to assume that the interesting discoveries lie inward.

Ne and Ni show each other that the interesting discoveries lie in BOTH directions.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
Exactly.

The one thing I would add just to clarify, as I believe non-dom-Ni users don't quite understand us in this regard: when uumlau says interesting discoveries lie inward, it does not mean merely inward toward ourselves, but deeper within the object itself. In a sense, we become the object, and we then try to better understand the object by better understanding "ourselves".
 

Little_Sticks

New member
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Aug 19, 2009
Messages
1,358
That's a pretty good explanation, but doesn't it leave out the predictive nature of Ni?

I don't know how respected my opinions are but I see Ni as having two natures: a philosophical one that Sim described in the OP and a predictive one that attempts to make a good guess about the future after carefully playing around with the knowledge it has of others. This could be in a Te context or Fe, depending. I suppose it would most likely be that Ni is usually a combination of the two.

Does anyone agree? Or am I alone on this?
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
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Regarding rejecting input: I am an extremely curious person, always looking for new information. But when I hear someone explaining something to me that I already know: what am I to do? Unlearn it for them so they can teach me?

Listen anyway. Really listen.

If they're right, but your knowledge has more depth, you can slowly share the depth.

If they're right, but in their slow way eventually get to depths you don't already know, you might learn something.

If they're wrong, you can gently show them that they're wrong, by sharing your ideas.

When you really listen to others, they can tell that you've done so. They will return the favor.

The "rejecting input" habit of xNTJs is not as efficient as it would seem at first glance. It seems that if you already know something, it's a waste of time listening to it again, right? But really, there are layers and layers of knowledge, as you already well know, as an INTJ. As an example, I learned the elements of salsa dancing in about 2-3 months, in the "level 1" classes, but for many months and years later, I was still going to the "level 1" classes, in addition to levels 2 and 3 and other kinds of lessons. In particular, every new "level 1" instructor had new concepts that I had not fully understood before, which were not being taught in levels 2 or 3, because the concepts were so "basic."

Sometimes, of course, you have to reject input because the time to assimilate it simply does not exist, and you have a job to get done. Most of the time, however, it's detrimental.
 

uumlau

Happy Dancer
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That's a pretty good explanation, but doesn't it leave out the predictive nature of Ni?

I don't know how respected my opinions are but I see Ni as having two natures: a philosophical one that Sim described in the OP and a predictive one that attempts to make a good guess about the future after carefully playing around with the knowledge it has of others. This could be in a Te context or Fe, depending. I suppose it would most likely be that Ni is usually a combination of the two.

Does anyone agree? Or am I alone on this?

The predictive nature of Ni is an almost accidental consequence of this inward understanding of an object. We don't even realize how much we "really know", but rather we've exposed ourselves to "that kind of object" so much, we can make predictions with very little apparent information due to our high level of experience with playing with ideas about the object.
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
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INTJ
I think the best way to identify Ni, instead of with big terms such as "meta-perspectives" or "different angles" is simply by referencing of archetypal templates.

I think the Ni big wigs may be responding badly (or may respond badly) to "archetypal templates" because it sounds restrictive, like the connection between this or that has already been made. Like, to use Ni, one for the most part is referencing some already in existence library. Even if it is the user who creates these templates and deploys them later, the notion strikes one as a curtailing of whatever creative thing goes on to make the Ni synthesis.

So, N-users all, the connections you make, are they created by you or do they exist prior to you and you tap into them?


(Will the i users say they create and the e users say they discover?)
 

sculpting

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
4,148
Exactly.

The one thing I would add just to clarify, as I believe non-dom-Ni users don't quite understand us in this regard: when uumlau says interesting discoveries lie inward, it does not mean merely inward toward ourselves, but deeper within the object itself. In a sense, we become the object, and we then try to better understand the object by better understanding "ourselves".

That is effing amazingly awesome. This explains U's and K's earlier comments regarding internal perception. Utterly insightful and awesome. (And similar to how FiSi becomes a Simulacrum of everyone around an enfp. By Ne reflecting them, then understanding ourselves, we understand them...)

Does this mean that in a young INTJ your ego would be highly defined by Ni? You "are" Ni in a sorta way as silly is "Fi" in a sorta way?
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
I think the Ni big wigs may be responding badly (or may respond badly) to "archetypal templates" because it sounds restrictive, like the connection between this or that has already been made. Like, to use Ni, one for the most part is referencing some already in existence library. Even if it is the user who creates these templates and deploys them later, the notion strikes one as a curtailing of whatever creative thing goes on to make the Ni synthesis.

Archetypal templates just seems so static.

When I got Ni-connection-making going on, it is anything but.

So, N-users all, the connections you make, are they created by you or do they exist prior to you and you tap into them?

The difference between creation and discovery is always an interesting one to me.

I'd say I'm always keeping an eye on which it is that I'm doing.

Depending on what activity I'm engaging in: I'd prefer one over the other.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
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Messages
8,110
Does this mean that in a young INTJ your ego would be highly defined by Ni? You "are" Ni in a sorta way as silly is "Fi" in a sorta way?

Ummm...

I'm not sure about others, but my strategy was to extravert while around others.

I could sit there all googly-Ni-eyed, but the people around me wouldn't get it and would think I'm retarded.

There's a sense of loss of self when you go and put yourself into other perspectives that renders one somewhat incapacitated.

This would also combine with Fi to make the INTJ dominant loop, which, interestingly enough, was probably better at dealing with the outside world than Ni alone, as Fi brought da juice with it.

Te, however, haha... Te always had my back no matter what.

It led me to be either silent (falling back into Ni) or to have a very sharp tongue (extraverting my T).

Wherein lay my ego?

Jeez. I dunno.

I was a highly sensitive kid. Very concerned with right and wrong. Very empathetic.

I'd say it's what you'd typically expect: some variation of Ni, Fi, and Te is where my ego lay.

Probably Ni most. And then Fi or Te.

My Fi and Te are still relatively close in my functional order.
 

Poki

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hehehe, but see then we'd cross check the Si library for all data we had on cow color. Then we'd go think on cow color genetics, cross check against petunia color genetics, get distracted by miRNA levels in corn, pet a bunny,
ponder bunny genetics, get a bunny furminator, ponder why cow tongues are so prickly, kiss the sweet cow nose, ponder the origin of noses in embyonic cells, try and find a link that links nose size the expression of color genes in mammals, cross check libraries of cow breeding histories to determine if sire/dam color coats are heriditary in these bloodlines and try an determine if I corss the two cows if I could get a black cow, brown cow or brindle cow, does cow coat color track with disease states?

My Si says that yes coat color is related via melonin and red pigment production, but I would need to understand the exact relation of bloodlines and breed to determine any possible relationship, but genetic testing for SNP varients would be the fastest route to determining blood relationships without a pedigree.

But I like bunnies. hehehehehe......

:eek:....:rofl1:

I heard bunny fumigator...thought about the prickly cow tongues in the grocery store...laughed at the crazy relations...replied...read the end...edited reply...realized I missed half of what you said...reread what I missed....relialize I dont remember half of what I just read...reread...gave up thinking about trying to follow it...hit reply
 

SillySapienne

`~~Philosoflying~~`
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Jan 14, 2008
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4w5
Both Ne and Ni keep searching for new knowledge.

Ne keeps looking outward, and finds something cool.

Ni looks at it, admires how cool it is, and starts figuring out more stuff about it.

Ne starts looking outward to find something else cool.

Ni says, "Waitaminute, I'm not done looking at this, yet," and points out a cool aspect of the original thing.

Ne leapfrogs off of the new cool aspect and looks outward for something else.

The Ne attitude tends to assume that the interesting discoveries lie outward.
The Ni attitude tends to assume that the interesting discoveries lie inward.

Ne and Ni show each other that the interesting discoveries lie in BOTH directions.
uumlau, I'm an ENFP with ridiculously strong Fi.

There's intellectual leap-frogging as you say, and then there's what I desire and love most, which is...

The ability to get to know my partner, for us to get to know each other, really know each other, to reveal our true selves via peeling all the pleasantries and fear-based facades.

I've read somewhere that INTJs have a tendency to be very secretive, and to hold back, is this true? Why do you think that is?

P.S. I don't think he's accustomed to chilling out with intelligent chickas who are sexual freakas. :newwink:
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
Looks like, after 36 strong hours, Silly managed to finally kill this thread...

:laugh:
 
G

Ginkgo

Guest
If INTJs were secretive and held things back, do you think they would tell you?
 
G

Ginkgo

Guest
How could he? He would have to pay extra for calling into our solar system.

EDIT: Pluto vanished. :shock:
 
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