• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

How Good Is Sim's Ni Definition?

highlander

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
26,562
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
What do you think of this definition Sim posted on personalitycafe?

I find it really interesting - especially the examples. It seems to be missing the essence of some things though.

"Ni, or introverted iNtuition, is dominant for INxJ, secondary for ENxJ, tertiary for ISxP and inferior for ESxP. It is an inward sense of abstract perceptual shift. Rather than imagine different ways we could change the outside world, Ni acknowledges many different ways we could change the subjective meaning of things to ourselves by looking at them from different angles. Rather than directly confront an issue, Ni will often solve problems by simply looking at them from a different angle. Doing a bunch of community service sucks? Just think of it as an opportunity to get lots of exercise! Note that Ni doesn't think about how to change the outer world the way Ne does; it only thinks about how to change *the way we interpret* the outer world. Ni leads you to try and see "through the smoke and mirrors" to what is REALLY going on below the surface, that other people are not perceptive enough to pick up on...so in its unhealthy form, it turns into conspiracy theories, a la Dale Gribble from King of the Hill.

Strong Ni users like being the person behind the scenes who pulls all the strings (even better if most people don't even realize it) and understands the dynamics of everything on a deeper level than everyone else. They are threatened by the idea that there might be any perspective or angle they cannot see, and as such they sometimes overestimate their own ability to fully grasp and work around the attitudes of others.

As with all introverted functions, Ni doesn't pay attention to external conditions outside the self so it doesn't care if anyone else grasps the ideas the same way the Ni user does. To Ni, I get the significance and that's all that matters. Ni songwriters (e.g. Thom Yorke, INFJ) will often write lyrics that could not possibly make any sense to other people without a direct explanation from the writer, but they don't really care because Ni considers intuition such a personal thing that it can't make its perspective/ideas clear to others very easily at all, and frequently doesn't even bother trying.

For another example, Isaac Newton (INTJ) invented calculus and didn't bother telling anyone about it for 20 years. Ne would have been out showing the idea to others and changing it based on their reactions--but not Ni!

As a result Ne is typically much better at putting its abstract ideas into terms that others will understand than Ni.

On a side note: Ni appreciates definitional freedom (and thus is often annoyed by Ti) in the same way Ne appreciates freedom to change its plan of action abruptly (and thus is often annoyed by Te.) Ti users will tend to frame debates by first assigning precise definitions to terms, but Ni often objects to this by wondering: "How are we unconsciously limiting our understanding by assigning such rigid definitions in the first place?" Ni always seeks to escape the unconscious assumptions that limit its understanding of as many different conceptual viewpoints as possible."
 

highlander

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
26,562
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I'll start with one comment on this sentence.

"They are threatened by the idea that there might be any perspective or angle they cannot see, and as such they sometimes overestimate their own ability to fully grasp and work around the attitudes of others."

The first part seems like it might make sense actually. I don't understand the second half of the sentence though.
 

simulatedworld

Freshman Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
5,552
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I'll start with one comment on this sentence.

"They are threatened by the idea that there might be any perspective or angle they cannot see, and as such they sometimes overestimate their own ability to fully grasp and work around the attitudes of others."

The first part seems like it might make sense actually. I don't understand the second half of the sentence though.

Translation: NTJs think they're smarter than everyone/that everyone who doesn't approach life the way they do must be a moron, because there can't possibly be anything they missed about any other perspectives.

By the way I thought this was going to say, "How good is Sim's Ni?" in which case I was going to respond, "Nonexistent."
 
G

Ginkgo

Guest
What do you think of this definition Sim posted on personalitycafe?

I find it really interesting - especially the examples. It seems to be missing the essence of some things though.

"Ni, or introverted iNtuition, is dominant for INxJ, secondary for ENxJ, tertiary for ISxP and inferior for ESxP. It is an inward sense of abstract perceptual shift. Rather than imagine different ways we could change the outside world, Ni acknowledges many different ways we could change the subjective meaning of things to ourselves by looking at them from different angles...

This fits. Everything after that is a non sequitur that describes how Ni might manifest in behaviors, rather than what Ni actually is. He's still anthropomorphizing the functions as if they are people, which is a strong indication that he's characterizing his experiences of those who predominately use Ni rather than talking about the functions themselves. In other words, he's stereotyping and not archetyping, which is a consequence of applied typology, and a cause of what SolitaryWalker calls "folk typology".
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,187
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Note that Ni doesn't think about how to change the outer world the way Ne does; it only thinks about how to change *the way we interpret* the outer world. Ni leads you to try and see "through the smoke and mirrors" to what is REALLY going on below the surface, that other people are not perceptive enough to pick up on...

...As with all introverted functions, Ni doesn't pay attention to external conditions outside the self so it doesn't care if anyone else grasps the ideas the same way the Ni user does. To Ni, I get the significance and that's all that matters. Ni songwriters (e.g. Thom Yorke, INFJ) will often write lyrics that could not possibly make any sense to other people without a direct explanation from the writer, but they don't really care because Ni considers intuition such a personal thing that it can't make its perspective/ideas clear to others very easily at all, and frequently doesn't even bother trying.

Jonatha Brooke's another. And what I like about that style is that I'm left trying to move into that world and trying to understand the framework she (or whoever) is coming from. It's a mystery I'm trying to unravel but never will quite be able to, especially because it's not coming through thoughts but from look, feel, personal perspective, essence.

On a side note: Ni appreciates definitional freedom (and thus is often annoyed by Ti) in the same way Ne appreciates freedom to change its plan of action abruptly (and thus is often annoyed by Te.) Ti users will tend to frame debates by first assigning precise definitions to terms, but Ni often objects to this by wondering: "How are we unconsciously limiting our understanding by assigning such rigid definitions in the first place?" Ni always seeks to escape the unconscious assumptions that limit its understanding of as many different conceptual viewpoints as possible."

Best, most clear paragraph in your post. I think you nailed this. The comparison to Te vs Ne is very useful.

Likewise, if you spin it around, Ti is annoyed by Ni, which seemingly tries to undermine its own sense of truth by saying, in effect, "But that is just ONE way of looking at things." Ni changes the assumptions underlying the framework within which Ti is operating.
 

ragashree

Reason vs Being
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
1,770
MBTI Type
Mine
Enneagram
1w9
This fits. Everything after that is a non sequitur that describes how Ni might manifest in behaviors, rather than what Ni actually is. He's still anthropomorphizing the functions as if they are people, which is a strong indication that he's characterizing his experiences of those who predominately use Ni rather than talking about the functions themselves. In other words, he's stereotyping and not archetyping, which is a consequence of applied typology, and a cause of what SolitaryWalker calls "folk typology".

:rofl1:

Mind you, I've seen SolitaryWalker do somthing very similar. Hopefully he isn't nowadays - I haven't seen him post on the subject for a while. It was getting tedious.

Anyway, shhh, damn you, Tater! I wanted to see where Sim's imaginative use of synechdoche was going to take him! :bananallama:
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
What do you think of this definition Sim posted on personalitycafe?

I think the description was weak at best.

The only part that I found myself thinking "thumps up" was the last paragraph.

Like most things Sim writes about functions that are not his own, this description was deeply biased by his own perspective. This wouldn't be so bothersome if he didn't constantly accuse others about the biases they possess.

The piece would have been better titled not "a description of Ni", but a description of Ni from an Ne-dom's perspective, or, better yet, a description of Ni from simulatedworld.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
This fits. Everything after that is a non sequitur that describes how Ni might manifest in behaviors, rather than what Ni actually is. He's still anthropomorphizing the functions as if they are people, which is a strong indication that he's characterizing his experiences of those who predominately use Ni rather than talking about the functions themselves. In other words, he's stereotyping and not archetyping, which is a consequence of applied typology, and a cause of what SolitaryWalker calls "folk typology".

Excellent post.

And, moreover, he's basically describing his conflicts and disagreements with these people.

It makes the writing all sound very childish; I mean, could you imagine anything like it being in an academic journal or the like?
 

highlander

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
26,562
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
This fits. Everything after that is a non sequitur that describes how Ni might manifest in behaviors, rather than what Ni actually is. He's still anthropomorphizing the functions as if they are people, which is a strong indication that he's characterizing his experiences of those who predominately use Ni rather than talking about the functions themselves. In other words, he's stereotyping and not archetyping, which is a consequence of applied typology, and a cause of what SolitaryWalker calls "folk typology".

On the one hand, I didn't disagree with the observations and illustrations. I liked them quite a lot but felt like something was missing.

Really, describing Ni is pretty difficult I think.

Getting more specific:

It is an inward sense of abstract perceptual shift. Rather than imagine different ways we could change the outside world, Ni acknowledges many different ways we could change the subjective meaning of things to ourselves by looking at them from different angles.

I like this but as the first statement in the definition, it sounds like this is the defining characteristic of Ni. It's certainly a key characteristic - a big part - but I don't know if it's the defining one. :unsure:

I tired to explain what I experience here:

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...someone-please-explain-ni-me.html#post1154299

Ni leads you to try and see "through the smoke and mirrors" to what is REALLY going on below the surface, that other people are not perceptive enough to pick up on...so in its unhealthy form, it turns into conspiracy theories, a la Dale Gribble from King of the Hill.

It's not just understanding what's going on below the surface - it's about understanding the essence of things and integrating the different elements or perspectives holistically. "Other people aren't perceptive enough to pick up on" reference probably isn't necessary.

Strong Ni users like being the person behind the scenes who pulls all the strings (even better if most people don't even realize it) and understands the dynamics of everything on a deeper level than everyone else.

This is probably true.

Translation: NTJs think they're smarter than everyone/that everyone who doesn't approach life the way they do must be a moron, because there can't possibly be anything they missed about any other perspectives.

Wait - is this a characteristic of Ni or projection? ;) What about INFJs?
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
On a side note: Ni appreciates definitional freedom (and thus is often annoyed by Ti) in the same way Ne appreciates freedom to change its plan of action abruptly (and thus is often annoyed by Te.) Ti users will tend to frame debates by first assigning precise definitions to terms, but Ni often objects to this by wondering: "How are we unconsciously limiting our understanding by assigning such rigid definitions in the first place?" Ni always seeks to escape the unconscious assumptions that limit its understanding of as many different conceptual viewpoints as possible."

Best, most clear paragraph in your post. I think you nailed this. The comparison to Te vs Ne is very useful.

:laugh:

Well, I totally agree with the first two of those sentences.

But the thing about the Te description, and descriptions of any functions as sole and independent things, is that it completely leaves out how those functions interact with other functions, and the counterbalancing effects of those interactions.

I am by no means rigid in my plans; I like to make them, and then improvise and change them around like crazy.

Why? Because my Ni brings flexibility to my Te rigidity.

It's really impossible, or, more accurately, absurd to think of the functions independently and in isolation. It's a vacuum that doesn't exist.

Likewise, if you spin it around, Ti is annoyed by Ni, which seemingly tries to undermine its own sense of truth by saying, in effect, "But that is just ONE way of looking at things." Ni changes the assumptions underlying the framework within which Ti is operating.

Yeah, and we do so for the sake of accuracy...

Which is more important: the Ti user's model, or the truth?

:doh:
 

Kalach

Filthy Apes!
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
4,310
MBTI Type
INTJ
Note that Ni doesn't think about how to change the outer world the way Ne does; it only thinks about how to change *the way we interpret* the outer world.

This is true, but....

Dominant Ni tends one to the notion that the outer world isn't real, or if it is real at all it is a product of distilled meaning, with the person being the distiller rather than the world. Extroverts and SPs may grant that the world is what it is, but they'll be somewhat surprised if anyone says they're rigid in their understandings. They'll be saying to themselves that on the inside I can understand it all in whatever way I want. All of those users will presumably however still have the Ni trick where one gets to go beyond what is.

(It isn't really going beyond what is. It just feels like that because it is officially untied from the external world. But what it really is is the making of more productive connections between concepts than can easily be seen. In short, it's "the way we interpret the outer world.")

On a side note: Ni appreciates definitional freedom (and thus is often annoyed by Ti)....

No wonder INFJs are nutz.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
Really, describing Ni is pretty difficult I think.

True, but that doesn't make what he wrote any more accurate.

I like this but as the first statement in the definition, it sounds like this is the defining characteristic of Ni. It's certainly a key characteristic - a big part - but I don't know if it's the defining one. :unsure:

Here, again, I don't think there's value in describing Ni by itself an saying that it doesn't desire to change the world: that's not it's role, that's Te's or Fe's role, and Ni works in conjunction with those functions to accomplish this goal.

It is absurd to speak of it like this, as if it's in a vacuum.

It's not just understanding what's going on below the surface - it's about understanding the essence of things and integrating the different elements or perspectives holistically.

Very good alteration.

"Other people aren't perceptive enough to pick up on" reference probably isn't necessary.

Not at all.

This is exactly what Tater was pointing to, and what I was pointing to when I said it was childish and would have no place in any publication of repute.

This is probably true.

Agreed.

At least regarding INTJs; probably not so regarding INFJs.

Wait - is this a characteristic of Ni or projection? ;) What about INFJs?

This is Sim's hatred of how NTJs interact with him -- nothing more.

Once again: childish.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
No wonder INFJs are nutz.

:laugh:

Nutzo moralizers.

What ties them down from this freedom are their judgments about other people's behavior in terms of group morality...

At least we're just trying to accomplish our personal goals and make our visions come to reality -- they want everyone to behave "correctly"...

And then they try to use tert Ti to logically justify their Fe judgments, all while having the strong axiomatic perspective of Ni...

Frightening blend there...

:horor:

(No offense, Ragashree. I think you're a good one. :wink:)
 
G

garbage

Guest
well, it was good enough to get 1000000 awards


What does it mean for a function definition to be "good"? Internally consistent? Congruent with reality? Congruent with MBTI or Jung? Understandable? Useful?

What exactly are we going for, here?
 

Rainne

One day and the next
Joined
Mar 7, 2010
Messages
875
MBTI Type
ISTP
The way I see Ni is "Hm...this sounds stupid, but if you look at it this way, it might actually work."
 
Top