Fe and Beauty

[Quinlan]

Jung had this to say:

Even where it seems to show a certain independence of the quality of the concrete object, it is none the less under the spell of. traditional or generally valid standards of some sort. I may feel constrained, for instance, to use the predicate 'beautiful' or 'good', not because I find the object 'beautiful' or 'good' from my own subjective feeling, but because it is fitting and politic so to do; and fitting it certainly is, inasmuch as a contrary opinion would disturb the general feeling situation. A feeling-judgment such as this is in no way a simulation or a lie -- it is merely an act of accommodation. A picture, for instance, may be termed beautiful, because a picture that is hung in a drawing-room and bearing a well-known signature is generally assumed to be beautiful, or because the predicate 'ugly' might offend the family of the fortunate possessor, or because there is a benevolent intention on the part of the visitor to create a pleasant feeling-atmosphere, to which end everything must be felt as agreeable. Such feelings are governed by the standard of the objective determinants. As such they are genuine, and represent the total visible feeling-function.

This approach to beauty seems so foreign to me, almost like that is the exact opposite of beauty.

I wonder, do Fe doms feel more aware and constrained by external standards of beauty? If so, how does this influence their self esteem? Is beauty in the eye of the beholder or not? Do things seem more beautiful to you, if they are presented as something "beautiful"?

Discuss.

 

[Glycerine]

Quinlan,
In my perspective, not really. I use Se to spot beauty.... you should know how that is.
Some conventional beauty standards are downright UGLY to me like pencil thin eyebrows, bleached blond hair, orange tans, botox to look younger, etc. I would say I have an eye for aesthetics because people ask me for my opinion for what they wear.

As for the other part of your question, I critique how I look constantly to the point of distortion but that's primarily aimed at myself so in that sense, I have low esteem about how I look.

 

[Quinlan]

Technically I don't use Se to spot beauty, it's Fi that is making the evaluation that something is beautiful or not. To me Se can see what is but it can't place a value (beauty) on it.

 

[KDude]

I use Fi for beauty, I guess... with a mix of Se. I dunno.. I know that what I see as beautiful doesn't seem to always line up with typical standards. Say, with people... that might be different.. What's the word for it? Preternatural.. I kind of like forms of beauty like that a lot. I would say, I have a mancrush on Adrien Brody. Cool nose. Noses are cool in general.. one of my first girlfriends in highschool had a crook in her nose, but she was gorgeous. Or Bowie. Or Devon Aoki. She's not exactly preternatural, but there's that old CNN reporter who was always sexy as hell to me.. Christiane Amanpour. Especially when she was younger. Maybe I like her because she's brave too. I don't know anyone who agrees with me though. They think it's funny for some reason.

 

[Thalassa]

Jung had this to say:



This approach to beauty seems so foreign to me, almost like that is the exact opposite of beauty.

I wonder, do Fe doms feel more aware and constrained by external standards of beauty? If so, how does this influence their self esteem? Is beauty in the eye of the beholder or not? Do things seem more beautiful to you, if they are presented as something "beautiful"?

Discuss.

Well, you see, people have been speaking recently about how we don't use all of our functions separately, which implies to me that people with Fe use other functions (Si, Se) to spot beauty, and simply utilize Fe to acknowledge more "objective" social standards of beauty. I know many, many times I have said things were pretty or something because I was put in an uncomfortable situation where I did not want to offend. I'm assuming this is what is meant by Fe's estimation of beauty in this passage - which means I'm also using a little Fe, or creating pseudo-Fe with Fi/Te understanding that it's more objectively pleasant to agree or compliment in certain situations rather than being brutally honest. In these cases, it is more "beautiful" to create harmony than to become an art critic or express ones self truthfully. It kind of goes along with Fe not wanting to make a scene.

I know two people with Si/Fe who have a very highly developed aesthetic, and I'm quite sure they are not just basing it on acceptable social standards...which is why I think Si as well as Se can perform an aesthetic function that is not merely Fe based.

 

[Glycerine]

Technically I don't use Se to spot beauty, it's Fi that is making the evaluation that something is beautiful or not. To me Se can see what is but it can't place a value (beauty) on it.

yeah good point. I use Se to notice things but I don't think I use societal standards to tell me what's beautiful. It's usually my personal take on it so I guess I like the natural beauty in things. For me, I am not automatically going to find things "beautiful" just because society tells me to. This probably sounds arrogant but if a lot of people find something "beautiful" and it seems overrated, I become turned off by it.

 

[Lady_X]

it's odd to think of a function informing you of such things but i guess if i really thought about it...i could totally see a nefitesi thing going on in there...but maybe you people are brainwashing me.

 

[Glycerine]

it's odd to think of a function informing you of such things but i guess if i really thought about it...i could totally see a nefitesi thing going on in there...but maybe you people are brainwashing me.

You have made the most sense out of anyone in quite awhile. Many of us (including me) read WAY too much into MBTI.

 

[KDude]

yeah, i'm confused too.. but i could just see that i tend to have my own spin on presentation, art, beauty.. and i don't give a shit what anyone says on them really. unless they agree so i'm sure Fi is playing a part there.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I definitely see the difference in Fe-people, but it's not as if they are brain-washed and just agree with the general consensus because it is the general consensus.

That said, I am interested in hearing more Fe thoughts on this....I too feel like my sense of beauty is guided by my Fi, but it does not always put me out of sync with others. I notice that SFPs tend to be very aware of what the current trends in beauty is, whether they agree with it or not. As an NFP, I'm very aware because I'm so drawn to novelty that I tend to be ahead of the curve (whether I agree with the standards or not). Where as with NFJs and SFJs, it appears there is a different way of valuing beauty, but I can't explain it because it's foreign to me.

 

[Jaguar]

This thread title should be changed to Fe and agreeability. What Jung is really pointing out is that Fe taken to an extreme would rather forego its real opinion, simply to keep the peace. The fact that he chose to use art to illustrate the point, doesn't mean those with a strong preference for Fe don't know what beauty is. That is not what is going on here.

What if someone with a strong preference for Fe is out to dinner and rather than tell the waiter the food really stinks, they tell them their dinner is "fine." Well, surely you aren't going to suggest the person doesn't know what good food is now, are you? That would be silly.

The underlying issue is the same whether we use art or food to illustrate the point - a strong Fe preference would rather be agreeable, than disagreeable, in order to avoid conflict.

 

[Ginkgo]

This thread title should be changed to Fe and agreeability. What Jung is really pointing out is that Fe taken to an extreme would rather forego its real opinion, simply to keep the peace. The fact that he chose to use art to illustrate the point, doesn't mean those with a strong preference for Fe don't know what beauty is. That is not what is going on here.

What if someone with a strong preference for Fe is out to dinner and rather than tell the waiter the food really stinks, they tell them their dinner is "fine." Well, surely you aren't going to suggest the person doesn't know what good food is now, are you? That would be silly.

The underlying issue is the same whether we use art or food to illustrate the point - a strong Fe preference would rather be agreeable, than disagreeable, in order to avoid conflict.

I disagree.

 

[skylights]

I disagree.

yeah, ditto, i know some Fe doms who would tell that waiter their steak blows and kindly ask him for a new one.

i think that Fe is generally better at communication. the Fe doms i know don't even necessarily see that kind of situation as a conflict - just an annoyance - because they are so good at handling things like that. if they want to return it without expressing any hard feelings, they can, and if they do want to express their discontent, they can, and with great precision.

so not to speak for Fe dom/auxs, but based on the Fe doms i know, having a different opinion is not mutually exclusive with being agreeable in their world. though if it were, i tend to think they would prefer what's best for the group. (as in most cases would i, actually.)

it's odd to think of a function informing you of such things but i guess if i really thought about it..

i think there are a lot of complicated things that go into beauty, including functions but also parents' preferences, early memories, cultural standards, common archetypes, associations, personal experiences, etc.

 

[Ginkgo]

lol.

 

[INTP]

Another reason why i like Fi more than Fe.

 

[musttry]

I have to admit, I have no clue as to what is beautiful or not. (except when looking at women. Somehow, that is more instinctual. But even then, except in the case of plain ugliness or obesity, my basis of choosing an so is how we get along)

It could be because I a guy, or because my parents never appreciated beauty other than in nature or because I don't use Fi very much, but when looking at clothing, for example, I am absolutely clueless as to whether it is nice or not. My trick for clothes shopping is basically going to the "on sale" section of well-known brand names tore or department and picking my size. At least then, I know that the clothing is acceptable for a large portion of the population.

I have actually made a conscious effort to develop a sense of beauty by going to museums, art galleries, fashion shows etc. with some success. Although I am much more interested in the historical or technical aspects of art.

Anyways, it has been difficult. My girlfriend was astonished when she met me and came to my appartment for the first time. I had left it unpainted and white and felt quite comfortable. She (INFP) finds it extremely ugly and unbecoming to not appropriate space with personal taste. We've moved in to a large appartment and are in the midst of painting ALL the (freakin) walls. I tell you, how the hell do you know if a colour is nice or not! Woe is me, a green is a green is a green, is it not?

We've actually had this conversation and she simply cannot understand that I can look at something and be completely unmoved, one way or another. I need to see things in context in order to judge if its nice. I can't just decide it is nice on its own.

Others have mentioned Se. I agree with this in the sense that I feel a certain sense of "euphoria" when contemplating nature or jogging through a park. I do not sense this when looking at objects.

So, that's the experience of one INFJ.

 

[21%]

This thread title should be changed to Fe and agreeability. What Jung is really pointing out is that Fe taken to an extreme would rather forego its real opinion, simply to keep the peace. The fact that he chose to use art to illustrate the point, doesn't mean those with a strong preference for Fe don't know what beauty is. That is not what is going on here.

What if someone with a strong preference for Fe is out to dinner and rather than tell the waiter the food really stinks, they tell them their dinner is "fine." Well, surely you aren't going to suggest the person doesn't know what good food is now, are you? That would be silly.

The underlying issue is the same whether we use art or food to illustrate the point - a strong Fe preference would rather be agreeable, than disagreeable, in order to avoid conflict.

I agree with this.

"Being polite" is different from "having no opinion about beauty except that of society's". I do find a lot of Jung's descriptions about the functions to be rather simplistic in that they focus on behavior more than anything.

I believe that all people know whether a certain thing is beautiful to them or not, and interest plays a huge part. You could show me a really expensive car that everyone thinks is beautiful and I'd just shrug and say something like "Well, I guess it looks nice", but I honestly couldn't care less what a car looks like. On the other hand, I do have a thing for sunlight -- sunlight on leaves, sunlight on water, sunlight on the pavement -- those are what I call beautiful.

 

[lucibelle]

i tend to have my own spin on presentation, art, beauty.. and i don't give a shit what anyone says on them really. unless they agree

Agreed 100%...Sometimes I find something beautiful that other people think of as downright ugly. And the other way round. The real world is often quite ugly to me. But there is much beauty in some movies, some art...

 

[Poki]

Jung had this to say:



This approach to beauty seems so foreign to me, almost like that is the exact opposite of beauty.

I wonder, do Fe doms feel more aware and constrained by external standards of beauty? If so, how does this influence their self esteem? Is beauty in the eye of the beholder or not? Do things seem more beautiful to you, if they are presented as something "beautiful"?

Discuss.

This definition of beauty is missed by the mere focus on the picture. Beauty is in the atmosphere or external environment surrounding the picture, not the picture itself. Beauty is outside of the object, not the object itself.

 

[wolfy]

This thread title should be changed to Fe and agreeability. What Jung is really pointing out is that Fe taken to an extreme would rather forego its real opinion, simply to keep the peace. The fact that he chose to use art to illustrate the point, doesn't mean those with a strong preference for Fe don't know what beauty is. That is not what is going on here.

What if someone with a strong preference for Fe is out to dinner and rather than tell the waiter the food really stinks, they tell them their dinner is "fine." Well, surely you aren't going to suggest the person doesn't know what good food is now, are you? That would be silly.

The underlying issue is the same whether we use art or food to illustrate the point - a strong Fe preference would rather be agreeable, than disagreeable, in order to avoid conflict.

I agree with this, Jung is talking about the Fe tendency to weigh how it will affect others in their environment when deciding on a course of action.