Interesting article about MBTI and Enneagram relation

[Chloe]

If someone is interested. Worthy read.

USING THE ENNEAGRAM WITH THE MBTI®

PAT WYMAN


Pat Wyman, M.Ed., L.P.C., is a psychotherapist with more than 15 years experience of using a model integrating the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator® and the Enneagram with clients She holds a Master’s Degree in Education & Counseling; is trained in imaging, hypnotherapy, and Neuro-Linguistic Programming; and is a Certified user of the MBTI® instrument. She has presented at conferences of the International Enneagram Association and APT International, and has been published in the Enneagram Monthly, the Journal of Psychological Type and the Bulletin of Psychological Type. Her book Three Keys to Self-Understanding was published by CAPT in 2001. Website: Pat Wyman Three Keys to Self-Understanding


I began using both the MBTI® and the Enneagram from the beginning of my work as a therapist more than 15 years ago. My first efforts as a therapist included collecting client information for a group of eight therapists, all of whom utilized deep emotional healing work (non-cognitive therapy). The intake process I designed consisted of the MBTI®, the Enneagram (identified through discussion as recommended by Helen Palmer) and a lengthy case history. I would then assign the clients to a therapist, myself included. I intuitively knew that both the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator® and the Enneagram were important. I just didn’t know why.

After a short time, I noticed a pattern. People entered therapy operating almost exclusively out of their Enneagram type. Following four or five months of hard work, there was a discernable shift. By the end of a year, most were leaving therapy and operating out of their Myers-Briggs® type. They made significant career, relationship and lifestyle changes that were in line with their MBTI® type. They were happier, peaceful and hopeful for the future. It was obvious to me that the MBTI® profiled their True Self just as Isabel Myers had said. The Enneagram took over when they were under stress. In most cases, that was very early in life and continued into adulthood.

Therefore, I began using this perspective as a model for the therapy that I offered my clients and my colleagues did the same. We found that it worked every time. It never missed. I conducted this intake process with about 350 people in the three years I worked in that capacity and the results were consistent: The MBTI® was a snapshot of the True Self; the Enneagram was a description of the defense system. Over the ensuing years, I have used this approach with literally thousands. A few people have told me that understanding their two types and roles of the two systems was a transforming experience which explained so much of what had heretofore defined their lives.

The easiest way to explain how these two systems work is to use a computer as an analogy. Think of the computer screen as your body. At the bottom, on the task bar, there are two programs ready to be activated. One is your MBTI® type and the other your Enneagram type. If you wake up in a good space in the morning and your MBTI® program is up and active on the screen, you will make good rational decisions for yourself. The way you look at the world and its inhabitants will be consistent with your MBTI® type. Then, someone may come along and “push a button” on you which is equal to putting the cursor on your Enneagram type and clicking the mouse. The MBTI® part of personality is stored on the task bar and the Enneagram takes over the screen. Because these two systems are located in different parts of your psyche, it is not possible to be in both systems at one time. It is either one or the other. The MBTI® part can evaluate information and make rational decisions – left brain work. The Enneagram defense is not conscious and not located in rational thinking. When people operate out of their Enneagram type, you will often hear questions such as “what were you thinking?” The answer is there was no “thinking” going on.

Those locked into the MBTI® will tell me that these people have moved into shadow or “the grip”. This approach seems to work with some people. But many people, myself included, will tell you that they cannot relate to that explanation. As an INFJ, I know what I look like under stress and it is not ESTP. Marilyn Parente, who is the current President of the APTi e-chapter, has written of her experience both in TypeLines and the APTi Bulletin of Psychological Type. As an ENFJ, Marilyn could not relate to exhibiting ISTP under stress. But when she saw the Enneagram One, she had a huge epiphany. It completely described her under stress. So the choice is in looking at an explanation that works some of the time or one that works every time.

The grip explanation works some of the time because some people’s Enneagram type happens to look something like their type opposite. Let us look at ENFP, for instance. When an ENFP is not stressed and feeling grounded, the ENFP reminds me of a puppy dog in a field: so much to explore, so much fun to be had, so little time! If that ENFP happens to have an Enneagram One defense (Box 1), when under stress, it will look as if that person is exhibiting ISTJ characteristics because One and ISTJ look so much alike. However, if another ENFP is defended as an Enneagram Seven (Box 2), you will not see any ISTJ characteristics. It will be very hard to tell from the outside that there has been any change in the person at all because ENFP and Seven look so similar. Without knowing the Enneagram defense, the ENFP-1 will easily accept “the grip” theory. The ENFP-7 will not be able to relate to it at all. However, it is important to remember that, although the ENFP and Seven may look alike on the outside, they are coming from a completely different part of personality. The ENFP can make rational choices; the Seven cannot.

The ENFP-1 feels a great deal of internal conflict, often describing it as having a split personality or two people living in one body. They generally begin to show autoimmune diseases as they move into middle age. The good news for them is that it is easy to tell when they have moved from the True Self into defense because the change is so marked. It can act as a major red flag. In addition, because they can experience two viewpoints depending on which system is in charge, they can understand people coming from opposite perspectives. The ENFP part can understand people who are optimistic; the One can understand people who find fault and criticize.

The ENFP-7 does not feel internal conflict but these people have their own set of problems. It is a bit harder for them to distinguish when they shift from one operating system to another but they can learn with just a little help. Also, since they have so many of the same traits in both parts of personality, it is hard for them to understand someone seeing the world differently because they have no internal reference for another viewpoint. For instance, both the ENFP and the Seven are enthusiastic and optimistic. It would be hard for an ENFP-7 to understand someone with a flat affect who is pessimistic.

Look at the two diagrams to get an overview of how these two personality combinations, ENFP-1 and ENFP-7, operate.

In a therapy session, I can move a person from one operating system to another and show that person that it is possible to control which system is in charge. Even in a non-therapy setting such as a workshop, people can easily feel the shift from MBTI® control to Enneagram control in an experiential exercise.

Because the MBTI® has all the proper credentials, there is reluctance in MBTI® circles to consider the Enneagram because of its lack of vigorous scientific testing. I am a pragmatist. If it works, let’s use it. Use of both systems takes nothing away from either. I continue to ask the MBTI® community to be open to the additional information the Enneagram can offer.



References
Palmer, Helen (1988). The Enneagram, San Francisco: HarperCollins.
Parente, Marilyn B (2006) Personal Reflections on the Roles of the MBTI® and the Enneagram. APT Bulletin of Psychological Type, 29(2): 33.
Myers, I.B. & McCaulley, M.H. (1985). Manual: guide to the development and use of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator. Palo Alto, CA: Consulting Psychologists Press Inc.
Wyman, Pat (2001) Three Keys to Self-Understanding: An Innovative and Effective Combination of the MBTI, the Enneagram and Inner-Child Healing, Gainesville, FL: Center for Applications of Psychological Type (CAPT).


(Note: to undertake an on-line course with Pat on the relationship between the MBTI® and the Enneagram via APT International, contact APTi on 0-01-301-634-7450 or email: Danielle.scafidi@aptinternational.org.)


© 2007 – Pat Wyman, 15620 Manchester Rd, Suite 1, Ellisville, MO 63011, USA.

 

[psyche]

This is very interesting. Thanks for posting.

I see a problem with her suggesting that one is in their E type under stress; this seems to dismiss the fact that there are levels of health in an E type and under stress you a) take on the characteristics of another type and b) operate in the lower levels of your own type. Her argument misses these points, imo. But her basic premise is really interesting and has given me food for thought.

 

[highlander]

Oh great. Just what I need. Another shadow

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Those locked into the MBTI® will tell me that these people have moved into shadow or “the grip”. This approach seems to work with some people. But many people, myself included, will tell you that they cannot relate to that explanation. As an INFJ, I know what I look like under stress and it is not ESTP. Marilyn Parente, who is the current President of the APTi e-chapter, has written of her experience both in TypeLines and the APTi Bulletin of Psychological Type. As an ENFJ, Marilyn could not relate to exhibiting ISTP under stress. But when she saw the Enneagram One, she had a huge epiphany. It completely described her under stress. So the choice is in looking at an explanation that works some of the time or one that works every time.

Hey, it's another INFJ pooh-poohing the MBTI shadow theories.

And this is interesting, thanks for posting.

 

[Chloe]

This is very interesting. Thanks for posting.

I see a problem with her suggesting that one is in their E type under stress; this seems to dismiss the fact that there are levels of health in an E type and under stress you a) take on the characteristics of another type and b) operate in the lower levels of your own type. Her argument misses these points, imo. But her basic premise is really interesting and has given me food for thought.

This article is only short version of her theory (and work). All that you mentioned is included in her theory, but article misses it.

She acknowledges healthy levels of E type, only says that person can be healthy when her MBTI part is in control, then E type only adds to persons qualities. For ex. Enneagram 3, unhealthy person of E3 can be workaholic, too image conscious, too busy and superficial, but when person is healthy E3 can only add to her personality and she can keep some good stuff from E3, like reading people well (which E3 does for approval).
Also, when person is more stressed she starts to act more like another type (E3 goes to E9), so that is also part of the shadow. Only she says that people while slightly stressed (and all people are always stressed and always defened because from birth we're forced to change who we are in order to fit in etc. so we end up chasing stuff we dont even want and like) act like E-type, and when VERY stressed gain some of negative qualities from another type (e9). Or when healthy e3 gains good stuff from e6.
So people dont recognize they are slightly stressed, they identify with that part of themselves because they are there almost from birth, so you can consider type e9 a shadow of e3 but less healthy levels of e3 are also shadow...
basically all that riso says, except that she says that there are no healthy levels of Enneagram when e-type is in charge.

INTX who is also enneagram 5 will think that some negative traits of e5 is "who he is", for ex. E5 when stress retreats and needs a lot space and doesnt readily give info to others, well, while this is similar to introversion its actually unhealthy reaction, and it's not because of being INTX. INTJ E8 would react completely different. And healthy INTX e5 would also react totally different than described.
That's negative part of having similar e-type to mbti type.

Real examples:
ENFP-1
INTJ-4 and ESFP-8

here's example of ESTJ e3, despite E3 being very good match for ESTJ, its still different when E3 is incharge and when ESTJ's traditional and practical nature is in charge.
estj-3, istj-9
Also, I'm E3 I really dont feel like that's my "true self", maybe some good parts like believing everything is possible, but all other things i feel like are only some defense and false self.

 

[21%]

I think she's right about E-types being unconscious. However, I think there must be some sort of connection between the MBTI and the Enneagram and it's not as simple as having two programs running on a computer. Based on my personal feelings, your e-type is deeper, closer to the 'core' you, but it's unconscious, hidden, unseen, and needs to manifest itself through your MBTI functions. You can't really directly manipulate your e-type, but you can become aware of your MBTI functions, and by doing so you 'fit in better' and are able to operate in everyday life in a more healthy manner, which in turn helps heal/nurture your e-type.

Well, I'm no expert on either system, but I think people give the Enneagram way too little credit. I'm glad someone's finding real use for it!

Thanks for the article! It's indeed very interesting!

 

[Chloe]

I think she's right about E-types being unconscious. However, I think there must be some sort of connection between the MBTI and the Enneagram and it's not as simple as having two programs running on a computer. Based on my personal feelings, your e-type is deeper, closer to the 'core' you, but it's unconscious, hidden, unseen, and needs to manifest itself through your MBTI functions. You can't really directly manipulate your e-type, but you can become aware of your MBTI functions, and by doing so you 'fit in better' and are able to operate in everyday life in a more healthy manner, which in turn helps heal/nurture your e-type.

Well, I'm no expert on either system, but I think people give the Enneagram way too little credit. I'm glad someone's finding real use for it!

Thanks for the article! It's indeed very interesting!

After reading your post I immediately thought you're 4 because the bolded part, i cant really say it applies to me, i dont see that much deep in my enneagram, i dont romanticize all that like 4s do, pain, depth, death.
i agree that its closer to the core in a way that you have many unconscious beliefs and fixations that are very linked to your enneagram type, but dont think its neccessary closer to a core of your self, more of your deepest fears and pain. underneath it is self.

 

[21%]

After reading your post I immediately thought you're 4 because the bolded part, i cant really say it applies to me, i dont see that much deep in my enneagram, i dont romanticize all that like 4s do, pain, depth, death.
i agree that its closer to the core in a way that you have many unconscious beliefs and fixations that are very linked to your enneagram type, but dont think its neccessary closer to a core of your self, more of your deepest fears and pain. underneath it is self.

Hehehe, you could tell? You're right. I'm a 4(w5).

What you said is really interesting. In my experience, people either relate to the Enneagram a lot ("Yes! This is me!") or not at all ("Hmmm.. okay. It's kinda interesting" *changes the topic*) and what I've noticed is that it doesn't really depend on the type. My sister is a 3, possibly with a 2 wing, and she can relate to the Enneagram far more than she does with the MBTI.

The MBTI is more predictable, and the uses of functions allow for different manifestations of personalities. With the Enneagram, it's almost like a hit or miss, which might raise the question of whether the system is flawed or not.

IMO, we still need to do more research on the Enneagram. I think the system hasn't been put to actual use for a very long time and there are some muddy areas that need to be cleaned up. Too bad the professional people have mostly chosen to dismiss it completely.

 

[Totenkindly]

To be a complete flake, I'm going to just say it's rather amusing to hear someone basically say the Ennegram types are all unhealthy and MBTI fixes them.

 

[Halla74]

I am fond of both systems, MBTI and Enneagram, so I will list the pros and cons of this as I see it.

My MBTI type is ESTP. Although fairly balanced on N/S and P/J, I identify with much of the ESTP type descriptions, the one's that don't list ESTPs as used car salesman/conmen that is.

My wife is an INFJ. There is no way I am her "shadow", or she mine.

My Enneagram is 7w8. Again, the type description of 7w8s is pretty damn accurate and represents many characteristics of my personality. My instinctual variant is sx/so, again, no arguments from me on that.

Both systems make references to "healthy types" and "unhelathy types." If I am going through a bad time, I am more prone to acting like an unhealthy 7w8 than an unhealthy ESTP.

However, if I am doing well, I must say that I exhibit much of both "healthy" types, both ESTP, and 7w8.

So, I think I get the gist of her model. It is interesting, but I don't think it necessary to villify the Enneagram system, or needlessly aggrandize MBTI.

 

[Halla74]

To be a complete flake, I'm going to just say it's rather amusing to hear someone basically say the Ennegram types are all unhealthy and MBTI fixes them.

Thank you for saying in 20 words what I took several paragraphs to say!

 

[Chloe]

To be a complete flake, I'm going to just say it's rather amusing to hear someone basically say the Ennegram types are all unhealthy and MBTI fixes them.

She is not saying that exactly. More like MBTI type is more in charge of your personality, than Enneagram type, when you're healthy person.
You must take into consideration that you as INTP and enneagram 5, have very similar mbti and e-type, which makes you more blind to conflicts within those 2 types in person than some people who have very different mbti and e-type.

I could never say that my type 3 is the real me. I have some qualities that 3 has and I will have them always and be able to use them, but I dont see it as my core self or identity at all.
Maybe i'd see it as such if i was ESTJ and 3.


anyway, maybe this theory works only for certain people and the author is blind to that because she is one of those people too. But I do know many people (mostly with weird mbti-enneagram combo) who benefited a lot from this model.

 

[Venom]

She is not saying that exactly. More like MBTI type is more in charge of your personality, than Enneagram type, when you're healthy person.
You must take into consideration that you as INTP and enneagram 5, have very similar mbti and e-type, which makes you more blind to conflicts within those 2 types in person than some people who have very different mbti and e-type.

I could never say that my type 3 is the real me. I have some qualities that 3 has and I will have them always and be able to use them, but I dont see it as my core self or identity at all.
Maybe i'd see it as such if i was ESTJ and 3.


anyway, maybe this theory works only for certain people and the author is blind to that because she is one of those people too. But I do know many people (mostly with weird mbti-enneagram combo) who benefited a lot from this model.

I agree with this. I think I'm an ENFJ enneagram 1. The "real me" is ENFJ...the self I've built to survive the "real world" is enneagram 1. ...Or at least that'd be a neat theory.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

It makes sense to me, actually. Enneagram does seem more about psychological dents put in our psyche by the environment available to us while growing up, whereas MBTI is more about the format of the psyche we are given. Enneagram seems more about facing personal demons; MBTI seems more like a user’s manual (to understand our strengths/weaknesses and the strengths/weaknesses of others).

This is even reflected in the marketing of the different systems. Enneagram is often geared toward healing ends or self-development; MBTI is more often presented as means to better get along with others, create harmony in the workplace, finding your niche in the workplace, etc. This isn't always the case, but it seems to predominately lean this way.

 

[Kasper]

I disagree with what she says about "in the grip" experiences, as an ENTP E7 I don't relate to ISFJs one bit as Si is a comfortable thing for them however Quenk's theory of grip experiences involving Si & Fe are exactly what it's like for me. Quenk's book has given me a more accurate view of myself under bad stress than the enneagram does, they do both have their place though.

 

[valentine]

I think this is a case of the author having a conclusion in mind, then finding 'evidence' to support it. While it isn't exactly baseless it doesn't come close to being universal either.

 

[Chloe]

I think this is a case of the author having a conclusion in mind, then finding 'evidence' to support it.

Interesting, because I think so about many who say "How can Xy dom be at the same time type Z in enneagram, because type Z corresponds more to Cs dominant behavior" - exactly, finding match/evidence for your conclusion, and using as fact that everything within persons personality should match completely, as if people dont have internal conflicts all the time.

 

[Ozz]

It is because MBTI contains mainly positive description while the Ennegram has a lot of negative description. Speaking of which, the article never really addressed the Ennegram integration and disintegration point.

To be a complete flake, I'm going to just say it's rather amusing to hear someone basically say the Ennegram types are all unhealthy and MBTI fixes them.

 

[highlander]

She is not saying that exactly. More like MBTI type is more in charge of your personality, than Enneagram type, when you're healthy person.

I've been thinking about this a fair bit since I first read this thread. I'm new to the Enneagram so if any of these comments are obvious or don't make sense, I'll apologize in advance.

Wyman's views make sense to me for the most part.

If the Enneagram is more related to our "defense mechanisms" then naturally the profile descriptions would highlight negative aspects of our behaviors more than MBTI which is about "cognitive processes". The "Grip" episodes described by Quenk seem to be more episodic or short lived. When we are in the Grip, we are acting in a way that isn't congruent with our normal behavior and as we emerge out of it, we get back to our normal selves. This seems very different than the Enneagram which relates to our core motivations. If our defense mechanisms dominate our personalities more than they should, then it could result in some bad things happening, and that doesn't seem like a short term episodic sort of thing where we quickly revert back to normal. So, I think they can both be related to how we react under stress, but I'm not sure I agree there is overlap between the two concepts (or at least I don't see it).

I don't think she is equating Enneagram with negative and MBTI as positive. I think it has more to do with being in a position where we are out of balance with respect to our motivations and how we are responding to the outer world.

With respect to the overlap between the two models, I think she is saying that you can compare the attributes of your MBTI and Enneagram type and you end up with:
1. attributes that are neutral or overlap - they are in common
2. attributes that are characteristic to your MBTI type and not Enneagram
3. attributes that are characteristic to your Enneagram and not MBTI type

What she is saying is that if our personalities become dominated by our Enneagram characteristics vs. our MBTI ones that it is unhealthy. So, in her practice, she uses this concept to help people get more into balance.

 

[Mondo]

Where does "6" fit in?
I agree with Jennifer that Enneagram typically has more 'unhealthy' descriptions than the MBTI does.