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What do ISTJ'S think of ENFJ'S?

CocoB

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Ok, I've been told different things and i would like to know what you guys think... What do ISTJ's think of ENFJ's? Do we "feel" too much? Is our constant "energy" draining? Does our constant talking annoy you?

Honest answers would help a great deal:hi:
 

raz

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I interact with 4 ENFJs on a daily basis, 2 coworkers, my store manager and my sister. My biggest issues with them are:

1. Think you should stop and do something for someone or them just for the sake of being nice.

2. Getting so caught up in their perception of how people might be thinking/feeling or in their ideas of a way to do something that they blatantly ignore the limitations of reality or the facts of the situation.

I feel like I spend so much time correcting their "guesses" at what could be going on that I feel like they're just spouting out nonsense. Just like all FJs, they start complaining if people treat them the wrong way. I can't stand that. I told my sister that most of the sentences out of her mouth begin with "I think" and "I believe". I point it out because everything she says isn't always a fact, which frustrates me, and then she or other people get fooled into thinking it's true. It makes me want to murder babies.
 

CocoB

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I interact with 4 ENFJs on a daily basis, 2 coworkers, my store manager and my sister. My biggest issues with them are:

1. Think you should stop and do something for someone or them just for the sake of being nice.

2. Getting so caught up in their perception of how people might be thinking/feeling or in their ideas of a way to do something that they blatantly ignore the limitations of reality or the facts of the situation.

I feel like I spend so much time correcting their "guesses" at what could be going on that I feel like they're just spouting out nonsense. Just like all FJs, they start complaining if people treat them the wrong way. I can't stand that. I told my sister that most of the sentences out of her mouth begin with "I think" and "I believe". I point it out because everything she says isn't always a fact, which frustrates me, and then she or other people get fooled into thinking it's true. It makes me want to murder babies.
As an Enfj myself i would have to ask what makes you think that we are not doing something to be "nice" or out of the kindness of our hearts?
What i will say is that we are BIG "feelers" and we base majority of things off how we feel and how others may feel as well... Once we draw a conclusion about someone or something based on how they or their actions made us feel... We will usually stick with that. I think the ISTJ and ENFJ have some many differences because you guys aren't big feelers and that is what confuses me the most about you guys... It's almost robotic and very interesting...
 

raz

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As an Enfj myself i would have to ask what makes you think that we are not doing something to be "nice" or out of the kindness of our hearts?
What i will say is that we are BIG "feelers" and we base majority of things off how we feel and how others may feel as well... Once we draw a conclusion about someone or something based on how they or their actions made us feel... We will usually stick with that. I think the ISTJ and ENFJ have some many differences because you guys aren't big feelers and that is what confuses me the most about you guys... It's almost robotic and very interesting...

It's more of that I get frustrated seeing "kind actions " done just because it should be done or you feel it's the right thing to do. To me, that's basing my actions with other people on moral standards that will not be genuine and are asked of me, rather than choosing to do something on my own.

As I explained to someone last night, my social interactions are more of getting a feel for the interaction with the other person. How is the other person acting? How do they seem to be interpreting me? Do I need to adjust myself? I let my feelings and experience guide the interaction, and say what I want to or make whatever social gestures I need to as I see necessary. I treat each interaction uniquely. That's why I reject the social conduct of Fe, because it imposes standards on me that go against my personal social conduct.
 
G

Glycerine

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As I explained to someone last night, my social interactions are more of getting a feel for the interaction with the other person. How is the other person acting? How do they seem to be interpreting me? Do I need to adjust myself? I let my feelings and experience guide the interaction, and say what I want to or make whatever social gestures I need to as I see necessary. I treat each interaction uniquely. That's why I reject the social conduct of Fe, because it imposes standards on me that go against my personal social conduct.
So pretty much the difference between Te-Fi and Fe-Ti? :D
 

raz

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pretty much. I just tend to think, "My Fi goes totally against that Fe. My Fi is telling me basic human crap. I think something is wrong with those Fe people? Are they broken?"
 

Unkindloving

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I have an ISTJ arch nemesis and am glad that you posted this thread. He absolutely couldn't understand or accept how i function as a person and made assumptions about everything. He refused to be swayed by actually discussing it with me and listening to what i had to say.
It was completely unwarranted, actually. My entire approach toward him was caring, respectful, and mature. For some reason, this bothered the holy hell out of him and he had some very strong negative opinions toward me / took to belittling me over various things.

I've talked with ISTJs on the forum and there's not a lot of clashing in the interactions. I would say it's because they have a better understanding of what an ENFJ is in actuality and because i have gained a bit more of an understanding about them. I doubt we'd form any deep-rooted connections with one another or more than an 'i see how you are', but there is the ability to be civil.
I told my sister that most of the sentences out of her mouth begin with "I think" and "I believe". I point it out because everything she says isn't always a fact, which frustrates me, and then she or other people get fooled into thinking it's true. It makes me want to murder babies.
Suuup raz.
Would you say your sister tends to be wrong about what she says she 'thinks' or 'believes'? Usually, the intuitions or observations that make me break out a slew of "think"s, "believe"s, and "feel"s end up being correct or verified. I use the terms because it isn't known at that exact moment or because it is based off of intuition.
I could see that driving most Sensors absolutely batshit. We're always floating around in this misty gray area of could be and probably will, whereas sensors seem to need black and white areas of can and definitely is.
 

Sparrow

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ISTJ Weaknesses
________________________________________
• Tendency to believe that they're always right
• Tendency to get involved in "win-lose" conversations
• Not naturally in-tune with what others are feeling
• Their value for structure may seem rigid to others
• Not likely to give enough praise or affirmation to their loved ones

ENFJ Weaknesses
________________________________________
• Tendency to be smothering and over-protective
• Tendency to be controling and/or manipulative
• Don't pay enough attention to their own needs
• Tend to be critical of opinions and attitudes which don't match their own
• Sometimes unaware of social appropriateness or protocol
• Extremely sensitive to conflict, with a tendency to sweep things under the rug as an avoidance tactic
• Tendency to blame themselves when things go wrong, and not give themselves credit when things go right
• Their sharply defined value systems make them unbending in some areas
• They may be so attuned to what is socially accepted or expected that they're unable to assess whether something is "right" or "wrong" outside of what their social circle expects.

ISTJ Strengths
________________________________________
• Honor their commitments
• Take their relationship roles very seriously
• Usually able to communicate what's on their minds with precision
• Good listeners
• Extremely good (albeit conservative) with money
• Able to take constructive criticism well
• Able to tolerate conflict situations without emotional upheaval
• Able to dole out punishment or criticism when called for

ENFJ Strengths
________________________________________
• Good verbal communication skills
• Very perceptive about people's thoughts and motives
• Motivational, inspirational; bring out the best in others
• Warmly affectionate and affirming
• Fun to be with - lively sense of humor, dramatic, energetic, optimistic
• Good money skills
• Able to "move on" after a love relationship has failed (although they blame themselves)
• Loyal and committed - they want lifelong relationships
• Strive for "win-win" situations
• Driven to meet other's needs

The Personality Page
 

raz

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I have an ISTJ arch nemesis and am glad that you posted this thread. He absolutely couldn't understand or accept how i function as a person and made assumptions about everything. He refused to be swayed by actually discussing it with me and listening to what i had to say.
It was completely unwarranted, actually. My entire approach toward him was caring, respectful, and mature. For some reason, this bothered the holy hell out of him and he had some very strong negative opinions toward me / took to belittling me over various things.

I've talked with ISTJs on the forum and there's not a lot of clashing in the interactions. I would say it's because they have a better understanding of what an ENFJ is in actuality and because i have gained a bit more of an understanding about them. I doubt we'd form any deep-rooted connections with one another or more than an 'i see how you are', but there is the ability to be civil.

This sounds more like a personal viewpoint he has on you the person, not your personality. It seems with the information you gave, there are two possibilities: we're missing important information regarding your relationship, i.e. why you have this relationship, your daily dynamic, his attitude toward other people -or- he has other issues for being like that that go beyond his personality, such as his personal life, character problems, psychological issues, etc. Not all of conflict issues can be resolved with type. There are lots of times that I just don't like a person.

Suuup raz.
Would you say your sister tends to be wrong about what she says she 'thinks' or 'believes'? Usually, the intuitions or observations that make me break out a slew of "think"s, "believe"s, and "feel"s end up being correct or verified. I use the terms because it isn't known at that exact moment or because it is based off of intuition.
I could see that driving most Sensors absolutely batshit. We're always floating around in this misty gray area of could be and probably will, whereas sensors seem to need black and white areas of can and definitely is.

I'd say the intuitive hunches are right half the time. That's the thing, they're intuitive "hunches." I just see it as my duty to make sure I clarify which parts of the hunches are practical and which ones just do not coincide with reality. :p

Another place where my sister and I conflicted was how she dealt with other people at work. She told me she came to figure how to deal with each person, what to do to communicate effectively with them after finding out how they thought and acted. The way it came off to me was that she was saying, "this person is like this, so I have to do this, this person is like that, so I have to do that to do things with them." To me, it came off as detached and strategic for someone who was trying to approach someone more personally. It looked like an effective strategy disguised as genuine caring rather than trying to be sincerely empathetic and connecting with the person. Like, for instance, she told me how she had to talk to another ISTJ I worked with. She said, "For her, you have to relate everything back to her, that's the only way she'll understand it." That was cold to me, because it should have been about what she needed, rather than how you deal with her.
 

Unkindloving

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This sounds more like a personal viewpoint he has on you the person, not your personality. It seems with the information you gave, there are two possibilities: we're missing important information regarding your relationship, i.e. why you have this relationship, your daily dynamic, his attitude toward other people -or- he has other issues for being like that that go beyond his personality, such as his personal life, character problems, psychological issues, etc. Not all of conflict issues can be resolved with type. There are lots of times that I just don't like a person.
Yea. I can't say that either of us is the posterchild for our types, but the issues that were there became amplified due to the vast differences in type. It's a combination of missing information and his mental state. I'd say he was pretentious because he was mostly independent, but also felt threatened/inferior by how i handled life situations and having some feelings for him.
The part that i couldn't fathom was why he was so opposed to me, yet peachy keen with everyone else. I can admit when i deserve to be disliked or when i'm just being generally abrasive, but my mature approaches rubbed him the absolute wrong way :laugh:.

I found the ISTJ-ENFJ thing to come into play is because ISTJs can have this tactic of "That's not good enough" due to their core values. Obviously made worse when they are unhealthy. Being ENFJ made me run through a death loop of assessing it and wanting to fix it or close off from it, while i couldn't exactly (or i could have, but he was already interlaced with 4 other friendships). It's just a lot of details and blathering over someone who didn't have enough self-awareness. Now it just makes me want to poke at ISTJs when they are about :tongue:

I'd say the intuitive hunches are right half the time. That's the thing, they're intuitive "hunches." I just see it as my duty to make sure I clarify which parts of the hunches are practical and which ones just do not coincide with reality. :p

Another place where my sister and I conflicted was how she dealt with other people at work. She told me she came to figure how to deal with each person, what to do to communicate effectively with them after finding out how they thought and acted. The way it came off to me was that she was saying, "this person is like this, so I have to do this, this person is like that, so I have to do that to do things with them." To me, it came off as detached and strategic for someone who was trying to approach someone more personally. It looked like an effective strategy disguised as genuine caring rather than trying to be sincerely empathetic and connecting with the person. Like, for instance, she told me how she had to talk to another ISTJ I worked with. She said, "For her, you have to relate everything back to her, that's the only way she'll understand it." That was cold to me, because it should have been about what she needed, rather than how you deal with her.
How does she take the clarifications?
Beating down the ENFJ idealism should be an ISTJ mantra lol. You destroy our land. You kill our children. You prostitute our women to your ranks. Will it ever stop?! :cry:

Hmm. It's the ENFJ way to chameleon ourselves to relate to other people. I'd say a lot of us mean well, but a lot do get caught up in trying to help anyone and everyone. As we grow and become more self-aware, we're able to better sort through who we really care to help and will mold ourselves to see things from their perspective and make their interaction with us more comfortable.
It can definitely seem way too cold and calculated, especially if we leave out our emotions toward it in an explanation. Think we get into some assessment mode after we establish something/someone is important enough. :huh:
 

CocoB

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It's more of that I get frustrated seeing "kind actions " done just because it should be done or you feel it's the right thing to do. To me, that's basing my actions with other people on moral standards that will not be genuine and are asked of me, rather than choosing to do something on my own.

As I explained to someone last night, my social interactions are more of getting a feel for the interaction with the other person. How is the other person acting? How do they seem to be interpreting me? Do I need to adjust myself? I let my feelings and experience guide the interaction, and say what I want to or make whatever social gestures I need to as I see necessary. I treat each interaction uniquely. That's why I reject the social conduct of Fe, because it imposes standards on me that go against my personal social conduct.
It's kind of hard to explain... But, i will do my best. You see, us ENFJ's when we do something kind or help someone or anything of that nature... you are very correct we do do it because it is most likely the right thing to do... BUT, the catch is that, "the right thing to do" is usually how we really feel in the first place. Being an ENFJ is very hard because we are very extraverted and connected with the outside world, so much so that it overpowers our inside (intraverted)... So, when we do something kind or make something right... We usually feel really strongly about it... otherwise we wouldn't be doing it in the first place. And, us not doing the right thing or helping would make us feel guilty... You see, it all goes back to Feelings... it is very confusing and draining!!! I'm tired from just talking about it... LoL. ; )

unkindloving; said:
I have an ISTJ arch nemesis and am glad that you posted this thread. He absolutely couldn't understand or accept how i function as a person and made assumptions about everything. He refused to be swayed by actually discussing it with me and listening to what i had to say.
It was completely unwarranted, actually. My entire approach toward him was caring, respectful, and mature. For some reason, this bothered the holy hell out of him and he had some very strong negative opinions toward me / took to belittling me over various things.

I've talked with ISTJs on the forum and there's not a lot of clashing in the interactions. I would say it's because they have a better understanding of what an ENFJ is in actuality and because i have gained a bit more of an understanding about them. I doubt we'd form any deep-rooted connections with one another or more than an 'i see how you are', but there is the ability to be civil.

That's HILARIOUS because i have an ISTJ male in my life that is kind of the same way... But, instead of being angry with me he shows agitation (sometimes)... You see he once liked me a great deal.. and i believe he still does. But, i think he is an awe of my mind-frame.. and how i approach things and am so upbeat and positive. We clash a great deal because i am always trying to see the good in something or someone and he is always telling me that i am not realistic. When we get into debates... He will shutdown and not want to hear ANYTHING i have to say about the matter. It cracks me up because we are completely opposite..... Yet he still comes around and shows that ISTJ interest... He calls me a character just about everyday. I just don't get him though... ISTJ's really interest me... They really do : )
 

raz

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How does she take the clarifications?
Beating down the ENFJ idealism should be an ISTJ mantra lol. You destroy our land. You kill our children. You prostitute our women to your ranks. Will it ever stop?! :cry:

Hmm. It's the ENFJ way to chameleon ourselves to relate to other people. I'd say a lot of us mean well, but a lot do get caught up in trying to help anyone and everyone. As we grow and become more self-aware, we're able to better sort through who we really care to help and will mold ourselves to see things from their perspective and make their interaction with us more comfortable.
It can definitely seem way too cold and calculated, especially if we leave out our emotions toward it in an explanation. Think we get into some assessment mode after we establish something/someone is important enough. :huh:

My sister takes the clarifications fine for the most part. I usually just explain to her why something won't work, why she's wrong and then tell her the possible negative outcome if she decides to become stubborn and refuse to adjust her outlook.

I just looked at the workplace stuff like, you were considerate and helpful, but in the process, you were disrespectful and ignored their individuality.


It's kind of hard to explain... But, i will do my best. You see, us ENFJ's when we do something kind or help someone or anything of that nature... you are very correct we do do it because it is most likely the right thing to do... BUT, the catch is that, "the right thing to do" is usually how we really feel in the first place. Being an ENFJ is very hard because we are very extraverted and connected with the outside world, so much so that it overpowers our inside (intraverted)... So, when we do something kind or make something right... We usually feel really strongly about it... otherwise we wouldn't be doing it in the first place. And, us not doing the right thing or helping would make us feel guilty... You see, it all goes back to Feelings... it is very confusing and draining!!! I'm tired from just talking about it... LoL. ; )

How strong your feelings are is relevant to a certain extent. My opposition with a lot of things done by ExFJs is that they don't stop to take into consideration how someone else might feel about something they want to do to be "kind." Sometimes people might not want you in their face or assuming things about them that are false.

I react to my feelings all day. I'm a human being. 24 hours a day, I'm reacting to my feelings. It all comes down to feelings, you see. But my feelings tell me that although there are millions of people in the world I have to adjust myself to, I have something called free will and the ability to step back and think through my actions. Nothing is forcing me to adhere to social considerations. However, I came to realize that my mind is my most treasured asset, and I grew a respect for science, leadership and mathematics in the process.

How I interact with other people is a technique perfected by myself for myself. If I get told to say or do a certain thing because it's the morally right thing to do, that person came to that same conclusion either by being taught it, or figuring it out on their own. But, people are different, and I may view one moral action differently than the next. The world is an unpredictable place, and due to people not all adhering to the same rules of social grace, I view it as a game of strategy. It's a minefield.

Plus the fact that you're drained isn't from the feelings. That was just a lot of introversion possibly, and transferring something to the written word in an articulate manner is likely not a simple thing.

That's HILARIOUS because i have an ISTJ male in my life that is kind of the same way... But, instead of being angry with me he shows agitation (sometimes)... You see he once liked me a great deal.. and i believe he still does. But, i think he is an awe of my mind-frame.. and how i approach things and am so upbeat and positive. We clash a great deal because i am always trying to see the good in something or someone and he is always telling me that i am not realistic. When we get into debates... He will shutdown and not want to hear ANYTHING i have to say about the matter. It cracks me up because we are completely opposite..... Yet he still comes around and shows that ISTJ interest... He calls me a character just about everyday. I just don't get him though... ISTJ's really interest me... They really do : )

If I get into a debate with an ENFJ, the biggest problem I have with them is them not being articulate or precise enough. It's almost not worth getting into the debate because you have to wade through generalities and what almost seems like a lack of genuine interest in the conversation, a trait I've seen common in ENFJs.
 
G

Glycerine

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If I get into a debate with an ENFJ, the biggest problem I have with them is them not being articulate or precise enough. It's almost not worth getting into the debate because you have to wade through generalities and what almost seems like a lack of genuine interest in the conversation, a trait I've seen common in ENFJs.
In my perspective, some people get WAY too bogged down in the details and if you understand the general idea, then it's "good enough".

I really do respect your perspective but it seems like you view your sister as approaching things the "incorrect"/"inefficient" way when it might just be different. My brother and I have had this clash for a long time because I don't think we really appreciate each other's differences.

The way I see it between my brother and I is that if he can't understand my reasoning for something, he automatically dismisses it as "wrong". However, in reality, I may just be approaching things from a different/more general angle. A lot of my hunches may not always be true in the short-term (present) but they tend to be accurate in the long-term (future). For example, my friend had a seemingly really nice friend but I just got a really weird feeling about her (and I thought I was being a jealous bitch for not liking her). Months later, she ends up screwing my friend out of $200. If I look back closely, her behavior didn't really add up over the long term. I have had this happen several times. The hunches usually don't just come out of nowhere. There's usually a rationale behind it but it might not be revealed for awhile. This is because XNFJs are usually looking for the common thread between everything. On the other hand, this means that XNFJs might force an nonexistent common thread of things and be completely off the rocker.
 

CocoB

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My sister takes the clarifications fine for the most part. I usually just explain to her why something won't work, why she's wrong and then tell her the possible negative outcome if she decides to become stubborn and refuse to adjust her outlook.

I just looked at the workplace stuff like, you were considerate and helpful, but in the process, you were disrespectful and ignored their individuality.




How strong your feelings are is relevant to a certain extent. My opposition with a lot of things done by ExFJs is that they don't stop to take into consideration how someone else might feel about something they want to do to be "kind." Sometimes people might not want you in their face or assuming things about them that are false.

I react to my feelings all day. I'm a human being. 24 hours a day, I'm reacting to my feelings. It all comes down to feelings, you see. But my feelings tell me that although there are millions of people in the world I have to adjust myself to, I have something called free will and the ability to step back and think through my actions. Nothing is forcing me to adhere to social considerations. However, I came to realize that my mind is my most treasured asset, and I grew a respect for science, leadership and mathematics in the process.

How I interact with other people is a technique perfected by myself for myself. If I get told to say or do a certain thing because it's the morally right thing to do, that person came to that same conclusion either by being taught it, or figuring it out on their own. But, people are different, and I may view one moral action differently than the next. The world is an unpredictable place, and due to people not all adhering to the same rules of social grace, I view it as a game of strategy. It's a minefield.

Plus the fact that you're drained isn't from the feelings. That was just a lot of introversion possibly, and transferring something to the written word in an articulate manner is likely not a simple thing.



If I get into a debate with an ENFJ, the biggest problem I have with them is them not being articulate or precise enough. It's almost not worth getting into the debate because you have to wade through generalities and what almost seems like a lack of genuine interest in the conversation, a trait I've seen common in ENFJs.


Hmmm... Raz, it is appearing as if ENFJ's annoy or frustrate you a great deal.. But then again, that is just what i "believe".... how typically ENFJ of me, huh?
LoL... But, more so.. It also appears to me that you believe that ENFJ's interact with people on a "phony" or "fake" level, when that couldn't be further from the truth. Your interpretation of our behavior with other's is..... Kind of blurred. You see, the special thing about ENFJ's (such as myself :hi:) is the ability to adapt to our enviornment as well as connect with people on THEIR level... It is not that your sister is saying "I have to be like this, to hang with this person"..Or "She needs to be approached like this".. What she is saying in ENFJ LANGUAGE is... "I've gotten to know her, i know her likes and dislikes... I feel that i have connected with her to the point where i am able to deal with her on her level"..... You see? The irony is that your sister probably had to get to know her co-worker as an individual (to her standards) in order to make the assesment that she made about that co-worker to you. Funny, right?

What i will say is that based on my debates with my ISTJ male, he always has the same complaint that you just had. I will began to say something to him but then get frazzled or say " I don't know, you know?" lmao.... He always responds by saying "No, i don't know, you didn't say anything"... It's funny because i do it out of fear... You ISTJ's are very serious and sometimes it is hard for me to approach him because i cannot determine what the reaction may be because you guys are always so serious and mum.

As far as being a human being with individuality, everyone is just that... human. ENFJ's are just "people people"... The way in which we interact with people is what makes us inspirational and motivational people. We interact with people based on each individual... kind of like a chamelon.. Making us very versatile and understanding. The world is a minefield and we understand that each person may not agree or believe what another does... But, that is the beauty of it. ENFJ's do have a "free will" we just chose to use it differently than other's... ENFJ's are really big on morals (and each ENFJ does not have the same moral's) and we do not set the moral's based upon society's rules or whatever... We base them on how we as individuals feel about one thing or another.
GEESH!! :)
You are really giving me great insight inside the ISTJ mind!! It is helping me a great deal... and most importantly, you are helping me to see how my behavior is percieved by others... VERY vital!! :hug:
 
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