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You Don't "Use" Your Functions! (?)

Moonstone3

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Is that a question? If it'll get you the job, why wouldn't you? Unless you don't want the job...I've always bullshitted those tests and always will.

Well, 1 2 of 2 things is clear here:
1) People like attention-to the point of answering for shock effect.
2) People are unstable-to the point of morphing to fit their environment.

These 'jobs' people apply for in this way, must not be very serious. You can't bullshit intelligence for long.
 

Totenkindly

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Good descriptive post explaining everything, Eric.

It's the other way of seeing it people have fallen into, of treating the functions as behaviors or skills sets (hence, "using" them), that has lent itself to what has become called "folk-typology". Even Lenore will sometimes say "use". It's easier to say, in passing. But she is the one who points out that they are the ways we build neurological connections, and that the "product", as she terms it, of an undifferentiated (basically, "shadow") function can come into consciousness as good as anything else, as long as it's going along with the ego and not triggering a complex from the unconsciousness. Hence, it's not really about "using" the function; it's anout consciousness or unconsciousness.

I don't feel quite committed to a particular view as the exclusive truth here... a big issue with this is that Lenore is claiming this is all neurologically based, yet we have no quantifiable or predictive way to connect neurology to a "perspective" here -- all the logic runs in reverse, we figure out from some other test whether they are "right or left brained" and then assign them a particular type based on it... so the idea is self-verifying to me.

At the moment, I'm left only with viewing them in the same manner that we view light as a wave AND a particle... "preferred function" is a useful approach in some situations, and "perspective/worldview" is a useful approach in others, and both offer a lot of insight on how what we have arbitrarily labeled as MBTI type might manifest itself.

I had never considered before the relationship between the old Transactional Analysis theory and Functions. TA surmises that all interpersonal transactions are undertaken as an Adult, Parent or Child, and crossed transactional roles can become dysfunctional.

TA's another interesting spin on things. Definitely there's some background in TA that worked its way into the thinking here when roles have been assigned to functions.
 

Eric B

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The neurological premise sounds like it makes sense. I would think that tying type to neurology would connect it to something testable and give it more scientific credibility. I guess it's a matter of it passsing whatever tests are needed. I have often wondered if this was being tested.

TA is by Eric Berne, and I have seen his name mentioned in one or more of those Beebe articles I've been linking to, so yes, that is an obvious unfluence on him.
 

ragashree

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I find the direction this is taking a little strange, as TA links specifically to subconscious ego states entered into in interactions with others. Cognitive functions deal with the mental processes by which one builds an understanding of oneself and one's environment; the enneagram is actually far more closely linked to ego, taken as the conscious awareness of self.

I would question whether cognitive functioning has anything to do with this, except in the sense that certain types/cognitive combinations are perhaps naturally more likely to assume certain roles, such as the Te types that of "Controlling Parent" and the Fe types that of "Nurturing Parent". But even then, the relationship is hazy; since TA fundamentally deals with how humans relate to each other it is far more significantly an indication of how social signals are given out and received between individuals, which is likely to have far more to do with mutual expectations and understanding, and previous experiences, than cognitive functions per se.
 

Eric B

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Precisely what Beebe's model is showing is how subconscious ego states enter into in interactions with others. In much of our discussion, it has been shorthanded into a thing of "using functions", with the functions being assumed to be equated to the archetypes. Hence, your pointing out two separate things. Two things have been conflated, that really should not have been. Yet they do still work together. That is what I have been trying to clear up.

Beebe has described the hero/parent/child, etc. as each being a complex having at its core an archetype, and that the archetype forms a shell around the function-attitude, which the ego can "scoop out" for its own purposes. (He also said in this light that "the function attitude is not fated to be equal to its archetypal carrier.")
In other words, the hero/parent/child et al start out as archetypes (models of people in particular roles) in the collective unconscious, and when they enter the personal unconscious (as we gain experiences) they then become complexes, "which will necessarily have an archetypal quality according to the position they are in. Thus we develop an inferiority complex around the inferior function, a superiority complex around the superior function, a “best auxiliary” complex (the caretaker) around the auxiliary function, and an “eternal child” complex around the tertiary function."
(This goes along with Lenore's statement "WHEN a complex is activated, the behaviors will reflect the function associated with it").

The hero and child are owned by our egos fairly early, as well as the parent in many people; hence they are more conscious. The rest usually are in fact, "subconscious ego states".
("Parent" is just the archetype that envelops the auxiliary function for all types; not something associated with Te or Fe "controlling/nurturing parents", unless perhaps Te or Fe actually is their auxiliary function).
 

tcda

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I enjoyed reading people's different perspectives here, especially Eric B as usual.

There is a danger into becoming too attached to a particular way of interpreteing MBTI though when it's something so under-researched. Perhaps I need to read more Jung. but oculd someone point me to texts where the very basic distinction between "function" (in the sense of 'worldview') and "behaviour" is set out?

Becuase while it's an interesting idea, it would seem it falls down once behaviour is brought into the definitions of the functions (as it is on most popular MBTI sites). So you would need descriptions of the functions which don't reference specific behaviours.
 

VagrantFarce

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It should be kept in mind that the functions are little more than illustrations, rather than any sort of established truth. There's no real neurological or empirical basis for any of it beyond
turn-of-the-century observation and introspection. It's easy to get carried away with terminology and not actually recognise what the system is trying to illustrate.

I agree with Sim/Eric B etc. in that the functions aren't tools that you pick from a tool bag when they're needed - they seek to illustrate how our minds colour the world and how we choose to make decisions as individuals. One good way of thinking of the functions is looking at them as appealing to different authorities ("authority" here being a set of criteria rather than a person or group). Their position in the function order simple dictates our preferences, e.g. we may abandon the inferior or auxiliary and cling to the tertiary when stressed or lacking confidence.

For example, an introvert may favour the individual's subjective judgements over external judgement - "thinking for yourself" or "being yourself" regardless of what others might suggest or tell you to do. When egotistic or lacking confidence, they may disregard the opinions of others entirely and rely on their own subjective judgement to guide them. Similarly, extraverts may rely too much on external factors to guide them if they lack confidence - constant dizzying movement, dogmatically clinging to external structure or externally derived factors etc.

These rules aren't set in stone (and they certainly don't reflect a person's overall personality or drive), but they paint a "good enough" picture so that one can then spot the dynamics that they try to illustrate. :)
 

KDude

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I would say I experience somewhat "Ne-like" thoughts, without "willing" it, but I tend to put it to the side. And if it's from someone else, it's even more the case. I know an INxP (probably T) that accused me of purposely being obtuse or something once.. she knew I could follow her train of thought, but at a certain point, I had to rein it in. I wasn't obtuse, it was really hurting my head. :p

I'm not sure how this applies to the overall discussion.. I'm naturally comfortable with Se, but I also purposely enforce it at times too.
 

Little_Sticks

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I don't think I consciously could - I would be terrified I would get the job and be obligated to not be myself :shock:

"self determination" is not something I would readily trade even for a job unless I were starving.

huh...that's interesting.

how do you know what they want and what will fit the position best in their eyes? Or have you only applied for low paid jobs where no one cares?

Some things are pretty obvious. If you're going to be on the phone a bit then a person who gives off the impression that they love talking to people is going to have a better chance. Even in high paying jobs, they are going to hire the guy that knew about the company, asked a lot of deeper questions about what they do, and seemed energetic, friendly and bright, even if his credentials are less than the stoic guy that takes forever to answer simple questions and doesn't show any kind of inquisitive energy in the job interview. I suppose you could offset this by being really bright and knowledgeable so that the interviewers are impressed and don't really care if you seem friendly or not, but I'm sure most can't or don't know how to pull this off if they had the proper cognitive ability because it requires education as well. This is probably what most would call a 'genius'; that's what I call a genius.

Couldn't that be like wearing a crown and pretending to be King when you have no idea how to govern?... Why would you want a job that you're not acclimated to?

I've never really felt acclimated to anything so I've learned how to wing a great deal of shit, even if I'm still not that successful in my goals. Maybe that's a bad thing, I don't know.

Well, 1 2 of 2 things is clear here:
1) People like attention-to the point of answering for shock effect.
2) People are unstable-to the point of morphing to fit their environment.

These 'jobs' people apply for in this way, must not be very serious. You can't bullshit intelligence for long.

I'm not talking about intelligence. Intelligence is symbiotic with knowledge. It can be grown in this way. But the ability to figure out what people like in a person and give them what they want as long as it doesn't become detrimental to your health is what I'm referring to. People do it all the time in customer service jobs, although granted, I think most would say they hate them, but that's not the point I was making.
 

slowriot

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Some things are pretty obvious. If you're going to be on the phone a bit then a person who gives off the impression that they love talking to people is going to have a better chance. Even in high paying jobs, they are going to hire the guy that knew about the company, asked a lot of deeper questions about what they do, and seemed energetic, friendly and bright, even if his credentials are less than the stoic guy that takes forever to answer simple questions and doesn't show any kind of inquisitive energy in the job interview. I suppose you could offset this by being really bright and knowledgeable so that the interviewers are impressed and don't really care if you seem friendly or not, but I'm sure most can't or don't know how to pull this off if they had the proper cognitive ability because it requires education as well. This is probably what most would call a 'genius'; that's what I call a genius.

hmmmm and this have to do with tests in what way? Thats normal common sense. But theres a difference between the application and the interview. In the application you provide info about your profile in regards to the ability to hold the job. In the interview they figure out if you fit in to their organization and if they are skilled enough they'll know if you are not being who you are saying you are. So it makes no sense to try and wing it at the interview.

Plus most introverts would only choose a job where using the telephone was your main tool at work if they are in dire need of a job or cant get anything else. If they have any common sense they'll know that they are going to hate their job within a week.

I have worked in jobs where they in their job profile wrote I extroverted as an ideal requirement. And I still got the jobs. When I go to interviews I get about 40-50% of the jobs I get interviewed in. And I dont change myself for them. For reference Ive had around 12 jobs in the last ten years.
 

Little_Sticks

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hmmmm and this have to do with tests in what way? Thats normal common sense. But theres a difference between the application and the interview. In the application you provide info about your profile in regards to the ability to hold the job. In the interview they figure out if you fit in to their organization and if they are skilled enough they'll know if you are not being who you are saying you are. So it makes no sense to try and wing it at the interview.
...

Alright, god damn it, this was in reference to the post about MBTI testing in the workplace. It's not hard to fake those tests and if there are 'more advanced' tests for higher paying jobs, I'm sure it's not hard to fake them either. I mentioned the interview stuff because it always felt like the same kind of faking to do that in an interview as well. I'm not going to argue with you about semantics or what you think this is about. That's why I posted it and I don't really have an opinion on other aspects at this time, so don't include me with them.

Plus most introverts would only choose a job where using the telephone was your main tool at work if they are in dire need of a job or cant get anything else. If they have any common sense they'll know that they are going to hate their job within a week.

I wasn't talking about a job where your main function is to be on the telephone. I was talking about jobs where using the telephone is a big supporting function, like working as an IT technician for a company and going to locations to fix things for people or help them over the phone if you can. NOT helpdesk or tele-marketing bs or secretary crap.

I have worked in jobs where they in their job profile wrote I extroverted as an ideal requirement. And I still got the jobs. When I go to interviews I get about 40-50% of the jobs I get interviewed in. And I dont change myself for them. For reference Ive had around 12 jobs in the last ten years.

Well that's great. I'm going to assume you are just stating that as a fact of reference herein to statements that say otherwise and aren't attempting to have a conversation where we speculate on a great number of reasons why that might have been the case, because it will put us no closer to actually determining any truth outside speculation, and that would be pointless for both of us.

ROLY POLY
 

highlander

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Very interesting thread. Don't know how I missed it. Will come back.
 

William K

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I think it comes down to how you see yourself and your brain/mind

i) I control my brain
ii) My brain controls me
iii) I = my brain
iv) I have no brain
v) None of the above

If you believe you can control your brain, then you could argue that you can consciously use functions.
 

highlander

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simulatedworld - "You don't 'use' your functions"

What an interesting statement.

I'm not exactly sure what prompted simulatedworld to make this assessment, but he recently made a post about it on another forum. I'm wondering if he said this because he observed many posters here claiming to 'use' functions that were supposedly out of their preferred orientation, or if he said this because of the connotation that the word "used" gives off - as if one uses their functions in the same way that one uses a hammer or a chair, or if there was some misunderstanding between him and other people. In any case, I'm trying to find out what the reality of the situation is.

When I first heard this, I thought it was a minor detail about semantics that hardly pertained to the truth, but rather to how we communicate about it. Maybe the truth is found therein.

I thought that maybe don't "use" functions as if we are consciously manipulating them, but instead we "use" functions in the same way that we use white blood cells in our bodies - subconsciously and out of our control. But then I reconsidered - because our functional orientations are in some ways conscious, are we not using them consciously? Ah! But if our functions shape the way we consciously perceive the world, then are our functions not "using" us? So I arrived at the conclusion that because, on some level, we are our functions, and our functions are us, the question of whether we can "use" them should be answered with a positive "yes", in the same way we can exploit ourselves, control our own actions, and exercise our free will.

The primary problem lies within the understanding of "use".

Any thoughts?


Sim is spot on on this!
His basis of speaking against "using" fuctions is that functions are perspectives or "world-views". the example he used that made it click for me was that instead of "using Te" to organize a desk, you see he desk through the lens of Te, which then seeks to create maximum external efficiency.
From here, I saw how this works with the archetype theory, and extended it as such:

If the person has Te as the "hero" function (ETJ), then organizing the desk might be his way of "saving the day". If it's "parent" (ITJ), organizing the desk might tend to come out more in the form of instructing the other person who left it messy. If Te is child or inferior (FP's), the act of straightening the table may be more like a good deed, done innocently, perhaps to win approval, or just because they gain some relief doing so. If it's shadow (TP/FJ), the circumstances surrounding organizing might tend to be more negative, and they likely won't even be conscious of this.
An ITP might become stubborn about external order (matching an internal blueprint) if the ego feels threatened in any way by some other order, and externally setting and maintaining that order will end up coming off as "oppositional". An ETP will tend to be even more critical of others concerning the order. An IFJ might tend to make mistakes, such as throwing out important papers. An EFJ might work up a frenzy and totally wear themselves out organizing the desk for others, when the others might not even care. The need to organize stems from their extraverted Feeling, but if they are under stress, the perspective changes, and they over-focus on the impersonal logic aspect of the ordering. The normally less relevant functional perspective ends up surfacing in a "huffy" manner that we can loosely associate with an archetypal manifestation.

So looking at them as perspectives made it all finally fall into place for me. And both of us were influenced by Lenore, so while we might not agree with everything she says, she has been an invaluable additional perspective to understanding the eight functions.

It's the other way of seeing it people have fallen into, of treating the functions as behaviors or skills sets (hence, "using" them), that has lent itself to what has become called "folk-typology". Even Lenore will sometimes say "use". It's easier to say, in passing. But she is the one who points out that they are the ways we build neurological connections, and that the "product", as she terms it, of an undifferentiated (basically, "shadow") function can come into consciousness as good as anything else, as long as it's going along with the ego and not triggering a complex from the unconsciousness. Hence, it's not really about "using" the function; it's anout consciousness or unconsciousness.

So, I'm reading all of the stuff in this thread and I'm scratching my head.

Why does this need to be so complicated?

Perhaps my view is overly simplistic but I look at the functions as processes. Each process has inputs and it has outputs. Something happens in the middle.

They might be used in combination (in parallel) or sequentially.

Do I use the process? Yes, I use the processes in combination to perceive and decide. My combination of process strengths and ordering helps to shape how I think.

Are they skill sets? If I have the ability/talent to use a particular process, and that process is exercised and strengthened over time, then I suppose it could be considered a skill in a manner of speaking. One can look at each process and its characteristics, and for a particular individual, assess strength on a scale from 1 - 10 (for example), where 1 is you don't use it or are not aware of it and 10 is you use it frequently and have confidence in the results.

So, I don't really agree with Sim I would suppose. His words seem to focus on the outcome of the process vs. what happens in the middle. I think both are reasonable ways to view things.
 

highlander

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I do think that by strengthening and focusing on specific things, you always lose in other areas.

And I've seen this but for the life of me cannot understand why it would be true.
 

Aleksei

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simulatedworld - "You don't 'use' your functions"

What an interesting statement.

I'm not exactly sure what prompted simulatedworld to make this assessment, but he recently made a post about it on another forum. I'm wondering if he said this because he observed many posters here claiming to 'use' functions that were supposedly out of their preferred orientation, or if he said this because of the connotation that the word "used" gives off - as if one uses their functions in the same way that one uses a hammer or a chair, or if there was some misunderstanding between him and other people. In any case, I'm trying to find out what the reality of the situation is.

When I first heard this, I thought it was a minor detail about semantics that hardly pertained to the truth, but rather to how we communicate about it. Maybe the truth is found therein.

I thought that maybe don't "use" functions as if we are consciously manipulating them, but instead we "use" functions in the same way that we use white blood cells in our bodies - subconsciously and out of our control. But then I reconsidered - because our functional orientations are in some ways conscious, are we not using them consciously? Ah! But if our functions shape the way we consciously perceive the world, then are our functions not "using" us? So I arrived at the conclusion that because, on some level, we are our functions, and our functions are us, the question of whether we can "use" them should be answered with a positive "yes", in the same way we can exploit ourselves, control our own actions, and exercise our free will.

The primary problem lies within the understanding of "use".

Any thoughts?
Sim's idea on the matter, as I understand it, is that rather than determining what we do, what we're interested in, etc. functions determine our motivations. That is, why we do what we do. Which is all fine and dandy, except that it's bullshit. Jungian cognitive processes determine our our cognitive reasoning style, that is, how we think, not what motivates us (that would be the Enneagram). The theory is that all thought processes occur using one of the eight functions, of which Perceiving functions are used to absorb information, and then Judging functions are used to make decisions.
 

VagrantFarce

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I don't think it's hard to think of the functions as perspectives, nor do I think it over-complicates the issue - they filter/colour the way we think and perceive, naturally tilting our focus toward a certain way of thinking. They're like colour filters, certain combinations of functions creating their own unique perspective:

color_paddles.jpg


This isn't just focusing on the end-result, because to be involved in a process is to be constantly making decisions - and the functions help us understand the criteria on which we base our decisions.
 

highlander

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This is a great analogy and description. I agree with everything you've said.

However, the question though is this - is this a "filter" or is it a more robust and complex process behind the operation of the filter. I think it is both, if that makes any sense.
 

VagrantFarce

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However, the question though is this - is this a "filter" or is it a more robust and complex process behind the operation of the filter. I think it is both, if that makes any sense.

I agree, I think they're ultimately part of the same thing. Whatever it is. :)
 

FDG

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You use your functions as much as you use your internal organs.
 
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