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What type is the most independent and why?

KDude

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Joined
Jan 26, 2010
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8,243
Heh.. I don't mind Dr. Manhattan really :D


Anyways, I'm just a little annoyed to be bundled with the "masses". That's all. It's very out of touch on what different sensors are like.
 

Rainne

One day and the next
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Mar 7, 2010
Messages
875
MBTI Type
ISTP
ISTP or INTJ, in the most literal sense of survival.
 

highlander

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Ni

Ni + Te.

Ni + Te.

Ni + Te.

Would you agree that Extraverted Judgment functions are the most "dependent" functions? Would you agree that specifically Extraverted Feeling IS the most "dependent" function? On average, Will an ExFJ work better than an ExTJ alone? Will ExxJ's work better alone than ExxP's?

If you agree that Je is the most dependent on "people stimuli", then certainly Ji is the least dependent on "people stimuli".

If Je and Ji are extremes then in the middle lies Ni and Ne.

Therefore:

Independence(+):

Ti +10
Fi +7.5
Ni + 5
Si + 2.5

Independence(-):

Ne - 2.5
Se - 5
Te - 7.5
Fe - 10

From this you have to consider the Dom(+-5) and Aux(+-2.5) functions of each type so it's this:

INTP(10), ISTP(7.5)=INFP(7.5), ISFP(5)=ENTP(5), ESTP(2.5) = ENFP(2.5), ESFP(0) = INTJ(0), ISTJ(-2.5) = INFJ(-2.5), ISFJ(-5) = ENTJ(-5), ESTJ(-7.5) = ENFJ (-7.5), ESFJ(-10)

...at least based on my understanding. Realistically, I think nurture would overwhelm nature.

This is an interesting concept - to assign weightings to the different functions. The results simply do not align with reality however and therefore, there is a flaw somewhere in the logic. According to the formula you propose, ISFP and ENFP are more independent than INTJ and ISTJ, which I believe to be relatively absurd.

Really, I think it does come down to definitions. I'm sure in some respects INTPs are more independent than any other type.
 

Aleksei

Yeah, I can fly.
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Mar 10, 2010
Messages
3,626
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ENTJ
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7w6
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sx/sp
You should totally meet my XSTJ brother. He values family traditions but for the most part, he's pretty nonconformist and an independent thinker... you would be quite surprised.
I value traditional morality from a purely Te pragmatic perspective: it is socially useful and optimal. I have zero interest in following it myself, however.
 

highlander

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Definitions of independent on the Web:

Free from external control and constraint; "an independent mind"; "a series of independent judgments"; "fiercely independent individualism"

Autonomous: (of political bodies) not controlled by outside forces; "an autonomous judiciary"; "a sovereign state"

Mugwump: a neutral or uncommitted person (especially in politics)
(of a clause) capable of standing syntactically alone as a complete sentence; "the main (or independent) clause in a complex sentence has at least a subject and a verb"

Not controlled by a party or interest group
 

Thalassa

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May 3, 2009
Messages
25,183
MBTI Type
ISFP
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6w7
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sx
Sure it is. S's are 75-80% of the population. To the N's of the world (the minority by a margin of 3 to 1, or 4 to 1), S's are absolutely the "masses". Don't take it as a put down, it's just a fact. There's a lot more of you than there are of me.

Yes, but more people are SJ than SP, and SPs tend to be more independently minded because of dom/aux Fi or Ti.

Even all SJs aren't necessarily "the masses." That statement says more about your world view than it does about the reality of the situation. I am not an S myself, but I take offense to people implying that my ex-bf or my mom or some of my friends aren't individuals with their own minds and preferences and differences who see themselves just as seperate from "the masses" as you do.

In fact I know of several xSFPs and a couple of ISFJs who see themselves as very distinct from "the herd" and I would tend to agree with them.

I think if you got to know more S people as individuals with thoughts and feelings instead of trying to study them as abstract subjects, you'd become enlightened from your narrow perspective.


We can walk into a room of people we've never seen before and know right away that something really strange is going on, or that people are uncomfortable, or that there is danger in the air.

Sensors with highly developed Se or Fe can pick up on these clues as well, they just use a different function to do it.

Some sensors are really stupid or narrow minded, but so are some intuitives.
 

Moonstone3

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Jun 10, 2010
Messages
182
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INTJ
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9, 5
Definately INTP. My best friend of 11 years is a through and high marked INTJ. She is very independent, and so am I.
The difference between these 2 types of independence is that INTJs are more likely to notice their affect on the world around them, and to want to tell someone about something exciting in their lives. The world also has a greater effect on their mood.
INTPs are never really "here". We are living in our heads, not right now in the moment, so the world around us is rarely ever "seen." Without these external forces, we could go off by ourselves and descend into our heads and be there for hours, days, or longer. If you don't notice what's around you, you can't even tell that you are detached from it, therefore you don't even realize how independent from existence you are.
An INTJ is usually independent as a result of an external force and/or to make a point. INTPs are independent because they feel the internal pull to be so.
And props to Craft and Curious.:cheers:
The fact is INTPs will fall off this thread first, not b/c of anger but b/c of something else to investigate-internal pull, whether it involves the rest of you or not-external effect.
It boils down to this:INTJs can feel their independence. :peepwall:INTPs are unaware.:whistling:

However, overall, I would say Introverts are more so than Extroverts for sure-Extroverts need social feedback.:party2:
Intuitives more than Sensory-Sensory needs environmental feedback.:headphne:
Thinking more than feeling-Feeling needs relationship feedback.:hug:
Judging more than Perceiving-Judging needs here and now feedback.:duel:
 

Moonstone3

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Jun 10, 2010
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INTJ
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9, 5
Definitions of independent on the Web:

Free from external control and constraint; "an independent mind"; "a series of independent judgments"; "fiercely independent individualism"

AHA!~Many different styles here!
INTP-An independent mind.
INTJ-Fiercely independent individualism.
And the other who knows...I've constrained my view...
 

Craft

Probably Most Brilliant
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MBTI Type
INFJ
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5w7
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sx/so
This is an interesting concept - to assign weightings to the different functions. The results simply do not align with reality however and therefore, there is a flaw somewhere in the logic.
I think you are right.

According to the formula you propose, ISFP and ENFP are more independent than INTJ and ISTJ, which I believe to be relatively absurd.
Perhaps "F" is a bigger factor than I thought it was.


Definitions of independent on the Web:

Free from external control and constraint
Does "external" mean "outer world"?

INTP? INTJ? ISTP?

; "an independent mind";
INTP?

"a series of independent judgments"
INTJ?

;
"fiercely independent individualism"
INTJ?


Autonomous: (of political bodies) not controlled by outside forces; "an autonomous judiciary"; "a sovereign state"
INTP? INTJ? ISTP? What is "outside"?
Mugwump: a neutral or uncommitted person (especially in politics)
INTP?
 

highlander

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sx/sp
Definately INTP. My best friend of 11 years is a through and high marked INTJ. She is very independent, and so am I.
The difference between these 2 types of independence is that INTJs are more likely to notice their affect on the world around them, and to want to tell someone about something exciting in their lives. The world also has a greater effect on their mood.
INTPs are never really "here". We are living in our heads, not right now in the moment, so the world around us is rarely ever "seen." Without these external forces, we could go off by ourselves and descend into our heads and be there for hours, days, or longer. If you don't notice what's around you, you can't even tell that you are detached from it, therefore you don't even realize how independent from existence you are.
An INTJ is usually independent as a result of an external force and/or to make a point. INTPs are independent because they feel the internal pull to be so.
And props to Craft and Curious.:cheers:
The fact is INTPs will fall off this thread first, not b/c of anger but b/c of something else to investigate-internal pull, whether it involves the rest of you or not-external effect.
It boils down to this:INTJs can feel their independence. :peepwall:INTPs are unaware.:whistling:

However, overall, I would say Introverts are more so than Extroverts for sure-Extroverts need social feedback.:party2:
Intuitives more than Sensory-Sensory needs environmental feedback.:headphne:
Thinking more than feeling-Feeling needs relationship feedback.:hug:
Judging more than Perceiving-Judging needs here and now feedback.:duel:

AHA!~Many different styles here!
INTP-An independent mind.
INTJ-Fiercely independent individualism.
And the other who knows...I've constrained my view...

Interesting perspective.

I think I can see the point the INTPs are arguing. The logic appears to be that this type is more influenced by the mind than other type (vs external things) and that Ti rates higher than any other function when it comes to independence of thought. It presumes that the INTJ is heavily influenced by extraverted thinking which of course is oriented towards the outside world. I think this conveniently forgets the influence of Ne on the INTP. It also grossly underestimates the impact/influence of Ni.

Is the INTP really a more independent thinker than the INTJ?
From type talk at work:
INTP - "Life's problem solvers"
INTJ - "Life's independent thinkers"

From Kiersey:
INTP - "Architect"
INTJ - "Mastermind"

The tag lines don't seem to support the presumption that INTP is more independent in thought.

That being said, I'm enlightened that independence is such a part of the INTP's identity.
 

INTPness

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Alright guys, my sincere apologies for calling S's "the masses". I was in a hurry when I wrote it, but that's no excuse. When I used that term, I was thinking strictly numbers (more sensors than intuitives); I wasn't thinking in my mind "sensors are a big mindless herd of cows". I wasn't thinking like that at all. Where it ties in with my independence is that I have a lot of ideas. NP's are very big on "ideas". And a lot of times, NP's (well, me anyways) have trouble connecting with sensors because they see us as kind of loopy at times. So, I think that contributes to my desire for independence. Kind of like, "OK, you don't have to like my ideas, but I know they are good ideas, so I'll just talk about them with someone else or do them on my own."

The other thing is that it seemed like in KDude's post (the one I responded to) that he was making it sound like "this is the world we live in and, therefore, sensory skills are all that matters". As if to say, what other skills would you need in this world? That makes it sound like intuitives don't have valuable skills. And that's just not true.

I remember working in construction and I got into a debate with the owner of the construction company (ESTJ). We were installing a partition into concrete and he was having a heck of a time figuring out the directions. I've never seen him struggle with something so much. He's usually genius at anything construction related. And then he said, "The freaking engineers who manufacture this stuff are complete idiots. All that schooling for nothing. Idiots!"

Here's the thing: The world needs both kinds of people. Without the engineer/inventor/creative thinker/idea guys, we don't have any new technologies. We'd still be back in the stone ages. I'll grant you that some of these people come up with some whacky ideas that aren't very practical. But, a lot of the advancements we have in society and in technology are a result of this "outside of the box" type of thinking. We also need people who are great with the actual application of these things. Everyone has a certain skill set that adds value.

I'm interested to know how you guys see these kind of intuitives? Are they just "out to lunch"? Of no use to society? Do you see them as having certain skills that you don't? Or do you just see intuitives as "a bunch of people who aren't as good as you at sensory things?"

That's what I don't get. I had sensor friends in college who in physics class or economics or even English classes (English for crying out loud!), who after class would say to me, "I have no idea what the professor is even talking about? Do you?" I would say, "Yes, I do." Then they would say, "Really? Do you think you could help me study or help me understand it?" I would help them and then you hear them on some other occasion talking about how "spacy engineers don't bring any value to the world". It's like, "Dude, I'm a spacy-engineer type and I just helped you understand your own native language better. And now you're talking about them not having any value?"

I just don't get that at all. There are things that sensors do AWESOME that I look at and go, "Wow! I totally wish I could do that!" But, there are also things that I do that seem so totally simple and easy and they can't figure it out. It's like a foreign language to them.

So, again, my apologies for the "masses" reference. I wasn't trying to get on my high horse and talk about sensors. But, I also want to point out that we have valuable skills. Our skills are usually the ones that sensors aren't as good at, and vice versa. We're at our best, when we learn to put these skills together and help each other out.
 

SillySapienne

`~~Philosoflying~~`
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Messages
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ENFP
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^ Sorry for the lack of explanation as to why, just not in the mood to get into something I don't particularly care about, but via my experience, ISTPs are fiercely independent, and ITJs are pretty fucking independent, too.

:cheers:
 

Robopop

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INTP
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sp/sx
INTPs, INTJs, and ISTPs are probably the most independent types for different reasons.

If every human were to disappear from earth and they were the only ones left I think they would have an easier time adapting to a world without other people, some of them might even enjoy a world without people.
 

SillySapienne

`~~Philosoflying~~`
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^ The ISTP would survive and thrive the longest, imo, if he were the last man on earth.
 

Fluffywolf

Nips away your dignity
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If I was the last man on earth, I'd probably kill myself trying to escape the evil grip of all the needy women.
 

SillySapienne

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Gah, I meant man, as in mankind, hu-man.

:doh:

I knew something like this was gonna happen.

You ITs, :azdaja:
 

Fluffywolf

Nips away your dignity
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Gah, I meant man, as in mankind, hu-man.

:doh:

I knew something like this was gonna happen.

You ITs, :azdaja:

Ofcourse you did. I just have issues restraining myself when certain oppertunities arrive. It is my flaw, not yours. :D
 
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