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  1. #81
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Heh.. I don't mind Dr. Manhattan really


    Anyways, I'm just a little annoyed to be bundled with the "masses". That's all. It's very out of touch on what different sensors are like.

  2. #82
    One day and the next Rainne's Avatar
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    ISTP or INTJ, in the most literal sense of survival.

  3. #83
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Ni

    Ni + Te.

    Ni + Te.

    Ni + Te.

    Would you agree that Extraverted Judgment functions are the most "dependent" functions? Would you agree that specifically Extraverted Feeling IS the most "dependent" function? On average, Will an ExFJ work better than an ExTJ alone? Will ExxJ's work better alone than ExxP's?

    If you agree that Je is the most dependent on "people stimuli", then certainly Ji is the least dependent on "people stimuli".

    If Je and Ji are extremes then in the middle lies Ni and Ne.

    Therefore:
    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Independence(+):

    Ti +10
    Fi +7.5
    Ni + 5
    Si + 2.5

    Independence(-):

    Ne - 2.5
    Se - 5
    Te - 7.5
    Fe - 10

    From this you have to consider the Dom(+-5) and Aux(+-2.5) functions of each type so it's this:

    INTP(10), ISTP(7.5)=INFP(7.5), ISFP(5)=ENTP(5), ESTP(2.5) = ENFP(2.5), ESFP(0) = INTJ(0), ISTJ(-2.5) = INFJ(-2.5), ISFJ(-5) = ENTJ(-5), ESTJ(-7.5) = ENFJ (-7.5), ESFJ(-10)

    ...at least based on my understanding. Realistically, I think nurture would overwhelm nature.
    This is an interesting concept - to assign weightings to the different functions. The results simply do not align with reality however and therefore, there is a flaw somewhere in the logic. According to the formula you propose, ISFP and ENFP are more independent than INTJ and ISTJ, which I believe to be relatively absurd.

    Really, I think it does come down to definitions. I'm sure in some respects INTPs are more independent than any other type.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  4. #84
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    You should totally meet my XSTJ brother. He values family traditions but for the most part, he's pretty nonconformist and an independent thinker... you would be quite surprised.
    I value traditional morality from a purely Te pragmatic perspective: it is socially useful and optimal. I have zero interest in following it myself, however.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Teacher (Idyllic), ESE-IEI (Si-ESFj), SLue|I|, Sanguine-Melancholy
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  5. #85
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Definitions of independent on the Web:

    Free from external control and constraint; "an independent mind"; "a series of independent judgments"; "fiercely independent individualism"

    Autonomous: (of political bodies) not controlled by outside forces; "an autonomous judiciary"; "a sovereign state"

    Mugwump: a neutral or uncommitted person (especially in politics)
    (of a clause) capable of standing syntactically alone as a complete sentence; "the main (or independent) clause in a complex sentence has at least a subject and a verb"

    Not controlled by a party or interest group

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Sure it is. S's are 75-80% of the population. To the N's of the world (the minority by a margin of 3 to 1, or 4 to 1), S's are absolutely the "masses". Don't take it as a put down, it's just a fact. There's a lot more of you than there are of me.
    Yes, but more people are SJ than SP, and SPs tend to be more independently minded because of dom/aux Fi or Ti.

    Even all SJs aren't necessarily "the masses." That statement says more about your world view than it does about the reality of the situation. I am not an S myself, but I take offense to people implying that my ex-bf or my mom or some of my friends aren't individuals with their own minds and preferences and differences who see themselves just as seperate from "the masses" as you do.

    In fact I know of several xSFPs and a couple of ISFJs who see themselves as very distinct from "the herd" and I would tend to agree with them.

    I think if you got to know more S people as individuals with thoughts and feelings instead of trying to study them as abstract subjects, you'd become enlightened from your narrow perspective.


    We can walk into a room of people we've never seen before and know right away that something really strange is going on, or that people are uncomfortable, or that there is danger in the air.
    Sensors with highly developed Se or Fe can pick up on these clues as well, they just use a different function to do it.

    Some sensors are really stupid or narrow minded, but so are some intuitives.

  7. #87
    Senior Member Moonstone3's Avatar
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    Definately INTP. My best friend of 11 years is a through and high marked INTJ. She is very independent, and so am I.
    The difference between these 2 types of independence is that INTJs are more likely to notice their affect on the world around them, and to want to tell someone about something exciting in their lives. The world also has a greater effect on their mood.
    INTPs are never really "here". We are living in our heads, not right now in the moment, so the world around us is rarely ever "seen." Without these external forces, we could go off by ourselves and descend into our heads and be there for hours, days, or longer. If you don't notice what's around you, you can't even tell that you are detached from it, therefore you don't even realize how independent from existence you are.
    An INTJ is usually independent as a result of an external force and/or to make a point. INTPs are independent because they feel the internal pull to be so.
    And props to Craft and Curious.
    The fact is INTPs will fall off this thread first, not b/c of anger but b/c of something else to investigate-internal pull, whether it involves the rest of you or not-external effect.
    It boils down to this:INTJs can feel their independence. INTPs are unaware.

    However, overall, I would say Introverts are more so than Extroverts for sure-Extroverts need social feedback.
    Intuitives more than Sensory-Sensory needs environmental feedback.
    Thinking more than feeling-Feeling needs relationship feedback.
    Judging more than Perceiving-Judging needs here and now feedback.
    What is normal to one, is incomprehensible to another.

    ALL anger in this world stems from a lack of control.


    All of reality bows to the illusion of life and death.

  8. #88
    Senior Member Moonstone3's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=highlander;1202597]Definitions of independent on the Web:

    Free from external control and constraint; "an independent mind"; "a series of independent judgments"; "fiercely independent individualism"

    AHA!~Many different styles here!
    INTP-An independent mind.
    INTJ-Fiercely independent individualism.
    And the other who knows...I've constrained my view...
    What is normal to one, is incomprehensible to another.

    ALL anger in this world stems from a lack of control.


    All of reality bows to the illusion of life and death.

  9. #89
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This is an interesting concept - to assign weightings to the different functions. The results simply do not align with reality however and therefore, there is a flaw somewhere in the logic.
    I think you are right.

    According to the formula you propose, ISFP and ENFP are more independent than INTJ and ISTJ, which I believe to be relatively absurd.
    Perhaps "F" is a bigger factor than I thought it was.


    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Definitions of independent on the Web:

    Free from external control and constraint
    Does "external" mean "outer world"?

    INTP? INTJ? ISTP?

    ; "an independent mind";
    INTP?

    "a series of independent judgments"
    INTJ?

    ;
    "fiercely independent individualism"
    INTJ?


    Autonomous: (of political bodies) not controlled by outside forces; "an autonomous judiciary"; "a sovereign state"
    INTP? INTJ? ISTP? What is "outside"?
    Mugwump: a neutral or uncommitted person (especially in politics)
    INTP?

  10. #90
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonstone3 View Post
    Definately INTP. My best friend of 11 years is a through and high marked INTJ. She is very independent, and so am I.
    The difference between these 2 types of independence is that INTJs are more likely to notice their affect on the world around them, and to want to tell someone about something exciting in their lives. The world also has a greater effect on their mood.
    INTPs are never really "here". We are living in our heads, not right now in the moment, so the world around us is rarely ever "seen." Without these external forces, we could go off by ourselves and descend into our heads and be there for hours, days, or longer. If you don't notice what's around you, you can't even tell that you are detached from it, therefore you don't even realize how independent from existence you are.
    An INTJ is usually independent as a result of an external force and/or to make a point. INTPs are independent because they feel the internal pull to be so.
    And props to Craft and Curious.
    The fact is INTPs will fall off this thread first, not b/c of anger but b/c of something else to investigate-internal pull, whether it involves the rest of you or not-external effect.
    It boils down to this:INTJs can feel their independence. INTPs are unaware.

    However, overall, I would say Introverts are more so than Extroverts for sure-Extroverts need social feedback.
    Intuitives more than Sensory-Sensory needs environmental feedback.
    Thinking more than feeling-Feeling needs relationship feedback.
    Judging more than Perceiving-Judging needs here and now feedback.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonstone3 View Post
    AHA!~Many different styles here!
    INTP-An independent mind.
    INTJ-Fiercely independent individualism.
    And the other who knows...I've constrained my view...
    Interesting perspective.

    I think I can see the point the INTPs are arguing. The logic appears to be that this type is more influenced by the mind than other type (vs external things) and that Ti rates higher than any other function when it comes to independence of thought. It presumes that the INTJ is heavily influenced by extraverted thinking which of course is oriented towards the outside world. I think this conveniently forgets the influence of Ne on the INTP. It also grossly underestimates the impact/influence of Ni.

    Is the INTP really a more independent thinker than the INTJ?
    From type talk at work:
    INTP - "Life's problem solvers"
    INTJ - "Life's independent thinkers"

    From Kiersey:
    INTP - "Architect"
    INTJ - "Mastermind"

    The tag lines don't seem to support the presumption that INTP is more independent in thought.

    That being said, I'm enlightened that independence is such a part of the INTP's identity.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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