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  1. #41
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    I value independence, by definition of working and being alone, so much that it physically hurts me and it makes me want to kill someone for it.

    I am not comfortable with other's relying on me but I hate having to rely on others.

    On independence:

    1. Ti
    2. Fi
    3. Ni
    4. Si
    5. Ne
    6. Se
    7. Te
    8. Fe

    Je(Fe and Te) hates "Lone time".

    Ji(Ti and Fi) loves "lone time".

    P(Ni, Si, Ne and Se) is almost neutral but Pe(Ne and Se) is a minus on "lone time".

    In reality, it's very relative to the person. (his beliefs, experiences etc.)
    Part of the problem here is the ranking doesn't make sense. You can't order the functions in terms of "independence". There is too much influence between and across functions that comprise a type.

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  2. #42
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Read the edit. No two people have the exact same life experience. It's virtually impossible unless you lock them in a small room and put them on some sort of prison-like regiment.
    Well as I said, it's irrelevant to my point, so... So?
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Well as I said, it's irrelevant to my point, so... So?
    It isn't irrelevant to your point.

    You're saying there's no personal filter to an introverted function?

    You're trying to make some sort of case for Si not being individual, but that's impossible given that people's life experiences are so varying.

  4. #44
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Rorscharch is a Ti-dom (ISTP).
    Could be. I lack the knowledge to argue. On the other hand, further observations would help. Your Si seems to disagree with this theory but I suggest trying to meet more Si-doms? My sister is actually one and she's not exactly the "conforming type".
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Part of the problem here is the ranking doesn't make sense. You can't order the functions in terms of "independence". There is too much influence between and across functions that comprise a type.
    I ordered the functions and I related them to each other adding their differing arrangements. Well, I don't know if its true but just a thought if you will.

    The definition of "independence" was also vaguely established. By nature, Ni-dom's for certain are the "revolutionaries" that revolutionize our world. Does that strike as "independence" to you?

  5. #45
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    It isn't irrelevant to your point. You're saying there's no personal filter to an introverted function?
    No, I'm saying there's no personal filter to this introverted function, outside of the filter provided by the Judging function. It just collects and recalls. It doesn't express itself independently of its own experiences, thus it can't be said to be more independent than most other functions (the only possible exception being Fe). Craft claimed Si to have a similar level of independence to Ti, Ni or Fi, based solely on the fact it's introverted -- which is utterly ridiculous.

    And therein lies the disadvantage of jumping into an argument halfway through.
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  6. #46
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    But how will you promote that reality? With Te I presume? Thinking does serve but because there is Ni, there is Te. If you cannot Te(conform), you cannot fulfill the "desires" of Ni. Unless your Ni is so unconformable.
    The number of times I have read a basic criticism of INTJs, that they impose arbitrary judgments...

    But yeah, there is a measure of conformity to reality. It tends, however, to be along the lines of "Well, we can't do this bizarre thing this way, but I have an idea that if we bend this and crack that and that guy pulls a bit harder....." In other words, reality as it currently stands is sorted through to identify the means by which the bizarre dream, aka the new reality, will be instantiated.

    And whether or not that ^ is actually true, it is certainly the perception. We, Team INTJ, take ourselves to be unlimited by reality as it stands. Welcome to Thunderdome.
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  7. #47
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Perhaps you are working on a different definition of "independence"?

    Theoretically, Ni-dom's, by their nature, are the most independent-minded types. This is why some people would call them "crazy". Because their Ni is filled with ideas that are hard to relate to the present reality. (as a result of inferior Se.)
    I've provided a definition. What would you say "independence" means?

    The following is the first sentence in Gifts Differing written by Isabel Briggs Myers and Peter Myers, in describing the INTJ personality type, "INTJs are the most independent of all the sixteen types and take more or less conscious pride in that independence."

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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    No, I'm saying there's no personal filter to this introverted function, outside of the filter provided by the Judging function. It just collects and recalls. It doesn't express itself independently of its own experiences, thus it can't be said to be more independent than most other functions (the only possible exception being Fe). Craft claimed Si to have a similar level of independence to Ti, Ni or Fi, based solely on the fact it's introverted -- which is utterly ridiculous.

    And therein lies the disadvantage of jumping into an argument halfway through.
    No, I think he's right in assessing Si as being more independent than any of the extroverted functions. I think you're speaking from a place of prejudice against Si, which is much more ridiculous. He didn't place it above Fi, Ti, or Ni, which was correct...of the introverted functions, it is the least independent. However, it is still more independent than the extroverted functions.

    And therein lies the disadvantage of you not really understanding what Si even is.

  9. #49
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    How is Si more independent than Ne or Se?

    That was a very poorly written riposte, by the way. Sounded like a child's retort. Just sayin'.

    EDIT: I love how people toss the word "prejudice" around and think it's an argument. It's so funny.
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  10. #50
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    Because Ne and Se need external stimuli to thrive.

    The independence associated with NPs and SPs has more to do with Ti and Fi being primary or auxillary functions than with Ne and Se.

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