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Religion and Fe/Fi

gromit

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I wasn't sure whether to post this in the MBTI and other personality matrices or in Religion and Spirituality, but I went with this one because I want it to be more functions-focused.

So I've been thinking about religion/faith a bit recently and also trying to get a little better grasp on these cognitive functions.

In the category of religion, we have communal and individual aspects, group worship and service (like in the "helping others" sense) and then things like personal devotion and prayer. On some level, the communal aspects of religion appear to be very Fe-oriented, while the individual aspects tend to be more Fi-oriented. Religion vs. spirituality, perhaps?

However, there are a lot of Fi users who participate actively in organized religion, and there are a lot of Fe users who are disenchanted with it.

It has been my observation that a lot of Fi users become disenchanted with religion (particular religions or religions in general) because they perceive it as the Fe "man" trying to get them to live by its rules sort of thing. Totally valid, this makes a lot of sense to me. At the same time, Fi users who ARE religious seem to find that religion, even the communal aspects, enhances their Fi spirituality (whether or not they even know/use the term Fi).

Fe users... I do not know exactly what makes them disenchanted with religion or how they feel about the individual aspects. I don't have a lot of data points except for on here and people from real life who have identified with a particular type (since I'm not amazing at distinguishing on my own yet). My dear ENFJ friend has been recently dissecting her religious views, because for a large portion of her life, duty and devotion were the same to her. She felt a sense of spirituality when she was performing religious duties, even in her private live. She wants to continue to be spiritual - and relgious to the extent possible (within a religion that isn't necessarily accepting of her sexuality) - but I can see that it has been very very painful and almost violent for her to let go of these expectations on herself, and I know that she will feel it sharply when she brings these things up with her family.

People who find fulfillment in relgion, it seems, are able to significantly reconcile the communal aspects and the individual aspects with their own F values. But I suspect there will always be tensions there for Fi and Fe users... maybe not. Maybe some people are religious without tension.


Anyway, these are just some thoughts. I'd be really interested in feedback. I didn't even get into the Te dimension for the Fi users and the Ti dimension for Fe users, but I'm sure that has a lot to do with it, particularly for the T-dom people. The above is certainly F-biased. :D
 

miss fortune

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actually one of the things that pisses me off the most about organized religions may be Fe based... I see them as doing more harm in the world in a lot of cases than they do good... it's incredibly rare that I see any religious group actually DOING good works and helping their fellow human beings... the religion may be based on the principle of being kind and good to others, but I keep getting a creepy feeling that telling people that they're headed to hell, smiting non-beleivers and televangilism aren't exactly things that go along with those principles :doh:
 

Totenkindly

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The Fe thing is a dual-edged weapon, just like the Japanese concept of "face."

It can be liberating to be in an environment that is more communal, as well as in one where all the expectations are laid out so that you know what to do, what your place is, what behavior is acceptable and what is not, etc. I don't actually see that as inherently bad.

However, it can easily be used as a control mechanism and used to overwrite individuality and opposing voices. There's some sort of balance that needs to be found there. I think religion can naturally drown out dissenting voices if it is a religion based on revelational truth that cannot be questioned within the religious framework.

When I left church a few years ago, it was not because I didn't have people there I loved, nor did I want to stop ministering to others, nor did I necessarily change my views... It was because I was so hurt, frustrated, tired, and angry of feeling like there was a lot of groupthough, always seeing to pressure and conform me to its image, and leaving me feeling judged and invalidated if I happened to hold a different opinion or even an ambiguity on the topic; and I was also tired of having to wear a fake face to avoid conflict (if I didn't want to engage) or reprisal (if I chose to engage). It was just too stressful for me.
 

Poki

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From my experience with my wife(ENFJ) she is a huge helper and because of Se(I am guessing) they are huge doers. They are pretty much one in the same because of this. It spans outside of religion, to life in general.

I have been trying to help my wife just let go of this duty/devotion and it is a huge struggle. One thing I have noticed and that has also been verified is that hurt, etc is a sign of weakness.

I have never seen religion as Fe, but I see things different. To me, the whole, makes up religion so I see it as very Fi because thats what it brings out. This is from an outsiders point of view. An insider might not see this Fi because they are apart of it, but they do feel it. The part about religion that I am not fond of is the Fe portion and I have a struggle inside of me between the good and the bad within religion. This is aside from God, its not "rules", but it is the way things are handled. Basically when the Fe goes overboard and the Fi users will emit feelings, but will continue to go along until enough can get together and decide to fight it as a group.

Just my quick 2 cents.
 

KDude

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I had a pretty strong conversion experience when I was 17 to Christianity (I've since...broadened somewhat), but even then, as interested as I was, I found the idea of church strange. My friend's mom was always trying to get me to go, using the argument that I needed to share or have fellowship. It didn't really spark any sense of conviction in me....

I did start finally exploring churches though, only to not get into the groove of what everyone was doing (like singing for example)... Eventually, I stopped going..so... I guess there was a lot of "Fi" going on, even when I was at a stage in my life to be strongly influenced and persuaded by things related to Christianity.
 

gromit

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Basically when the Fe goes overboard and the Fi users will emit feelings, but will continue to go along until enough can get together and decide to fight it as a group.

Interesting... and this is sort of off-topic, but that seems to be how new religions are born. I think it's how Christianity was born, how Islam was born, how all the different permutations of each were born. All those Fi users though typically need somebody around whom to... rally, though, someone to articulate the vision. I wonder if religious founders tend to be Fi or Fe users.


More later...!
 

KDude

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i was gonna add that i didn't exactly make fans in these churches either. not that i set out to do that, but some people made a big deal out of things. that same church i went with my friend and his mom had a preacher who "wanted to admonish" me (his words) about my dyed hair. like it was inappropriate for his church or something.

also, at that time, i was pretty stoked about reading the bible, and the bible study teacher didnt like me asking questions in class - and uh, one time, i asked him a (i guess) really challenging question and he literally whispered to me "don't back me in a corner, boy". this is totally Fi vs Fe or something. i was breaking some kind of social rule in his mind. in my mind, i was wondering why he was teaching things that didnt line up with what i was reading.

on the flipside, he took me to shoney's to make a "truce" (i didnt know there was a conflict to begin with, but hey....free breakfast)
 

miss fortune

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and to add to mine... what pisses me off the most about religion is that the churches aren't nice enough... they're too closed off from the world in their own happy little insular space :steam:
 

Poki

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and to add to mine... what pisses me off the most about religion is that the churches aren't nice enough... they're too closed off from the world in their own happy little insular space :steam:

For a group that is not supposed to be judgemental they can come across as very judgemental as they stand behind someone elses words.
 

CuriousFeeling

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Never been that crazy about religion. I think it's based on authority and scaring people to do what is right because they'll go to Hell. I tend to go my own way with spirituality. Even when I used Fe a bit more as a kid, I wasn't a fan of the authority factor of most religious figures. Seemed more like "my beliefs are better than theirs, you must obey and be good" type of attitude, which I think fosters intolerance. Not sure if religious beliefs are purely Fe based, perhaps a combination of Fe and Fi.

I have some Christian beliefs, but on the most part, I'm agnostic. I don't like having to conform to a set doctrine of rules that I don't believe in. I think people should do moral actions to benefit humanity as a whole, rather than appease to authority.
 

InsatiableCuriosity

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Interesting... and this is sort of off-topic, but that seems to be how new religions are born. I think it's how Christianity was born, how Islam was born, how all the different permutations of each were born. All those Fi users though typically need somebody around whom to... rally, though, someone to articulate the vision. I wonder if religious founders tend to be Fi or Fe users.


More later...!

I think that many of them would be horrified at the interpretations placed over the centuries on their thoughts and words by mankind wanting to control the perception of that religion.

It also makes me ask - what is religion as opposed to spirituality - and in what is the faith in that religion vested?

Is it in the man made rituals and symbolism or the original truths that have more than likely suffered from "Chinese Whispers" over the hundreds of years since they walked the earth? (with apologies to those of Chinese heritage - just not sure what else to call that particular children's game)
 

InsatiableCuriosity

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actually one of the things that pisses me off the most about organized religions may be Fe based... I see them as doing more harm in the world in a lot of cases than they do good... it's incredibly rare that I see any religious group actually DOING good works and helping their fellow human beings... the religion may be based on the principle of being kind and good to others, but I keep getting a creepy feeling that telling people that they're headed to hell, smiting non-beleivers and televangilism aren't exactly things that go along with those principles :doh:
I cannot help but agree with this
 

InsatiableCuriosity

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and to add to mine... what pisses me off the most about religion is that the churches aren't nice enough... they're too closed off from the world in their own happy little insular space :steam:

A few years ago I had a disagreement with a wealthy, religious man who was boasting about the architecturally superior meeting place he was building in a very disadvantaged community. I argued that the pomp of the building was unimportant and unnecessary, and would possibly keep away the very people they purported to want to help.

He was a bit shocked when I suggested that he tone down the building in favor of spending more money on sporting equipment and uniforms for the kids so that they felt like they belonged, and a fund that could help kids attend camps where their parents were too poor to pay for them to participate.
 

Poki

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A few years ago I had a disagreement with a wealthy, religious man who was boasting about the architecturally superior meeting place he was building in a very disadvantaged community. I argued that the pomp of the building was unimportant and unnecessary, and would possibly keep away the very people they purported to want to help.

He was a bit shocked when I suggested that he tone down the building in favor of spending more money on sporting equipment and uniforms for the kids so that they felt like they belonged, and a fund that could help kids attend camps where their parents were too poor to pay for them to participate.

What if God was one of us
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home


We have role models and we have those we can relate to. Dreams vs Reality.
 

miss fortune

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A few years ago I had a disagreement with a wealthy, religious man who was boasting about the architecturally superior meeting place he was building in a very disadvantaged community. I argued that the pomp of the building was unimportant and unnecessary, and would possibly keep away the very people they purported to want to help.

He was a bit shocked when I suggested that he tone down the building in favor of spending more money on sporting equipment and uniforms for the kids so that they felt like they belonged, and a fund that could help kids attend camps where their parents were too poor to pay for them to participate.

that just seems like a case of someone wanting to feel that they were doing good on their own terms without the least bit of concern for those involved :thelook:

It reminds me of a debate that arose while I was staying with some socially active nuns in Brazil... one of the nuns ran an organization that collected donations of everything from eyeglasses to clothes to medical equipment like crutches to help out people who were in need of assistance... a wealthy parish in the US wanted to donate money for a fancy stained glass window for a church and she was offended because that didn't help anyone... she suggested that they send a new van to help people get to doctor's appointments instead- the American parish was infuriated, which seemed rediculous to me :doh:
 

KDude

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i don't like the money floating around churches either. (i mean, not that it doesn;t have to exist..but just like what insatiablecuriousity said.. if it's there, why not actually do even more good with it)

there's a famous preacher in my town... john hagee. maybe some people are fans of his here, not sure. his church literally looks like a mini holy roman empire or something tho. the bad part though is that he himself lives in the city's most exclusive neighborhood, where all the pro sports players and entertainers live. those houses are beyond pimp. and it's pretty lame for a clergyman imo. he preaches and writes "prophecy" books. it's not like he got this cash from actually working (and no, preaching is not working).
 

InsatiableCuriosity

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that just seems like a case of someone wanting to feel that they were doing good on their own terms without the least bit of concern for those involved :thelook:

It reminds me of a debate that arose while I was staying with some socially active nuns in Brazil... one of the nuns ran an organization that collected donations of everything from eyeglasses to clothes to medical equipment like crutches to help out people who were in need of assistance... a wealthy parish in the US wanted to donate money for a fancy stained glass window for a church and she was offended because that didn't help anyone... she suggested that they send a new van to help people get to doctor's appointments instead- the American parish was infuriated, which seemed rediculous to me :doh:

Absolutely!! I just googled the exact words of a quote from Matthew 6:3 "But when you give to someone in need, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing."** People tend to forget this and prefer to have recognition - case and point telethons where many people will give so that their name will be printed on screen or read out.

**I own to no established religion now but feel closest probably to Buddhism.
 

Coriolis

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Interesting thread. Here is a mixed-bag reply touching on many of the previous posts.

I can see the tension between Fe and Fi in the communal worship setting. It is possible for such environments to strike a balance, providing a communal experience that does not sacrifice individuality. As an example, I have attended groups which observe a commonality of practice, while encouraging a diversity of belief. The group used a standard ritual, prayers, etc. that everyone was familiar with, making it easy for everyone to participate, but each was free to interpret the words and symbols in his or her own way.

Of course, most people will still tend to gravitate toward religious groups that share some commonality of faith, also. Churches, at least today, are mostly voluntary associations of people; someone whose personal beliefs diverge significantly from their church can find another. But any religion or church is at best an approximation of highly individual faith. When we buy shoes, we don't have them custom-made to our feet, we buy the size off the shelf that is the closest match. Similarly with churches. We find a fit that is "good enough" and trust that any difference can be accommodated - and are understandably disappointed when it is not.

If we are "shopping" for a church or religion in this way, however, we will have a hard time if we do not understand what our own beliefs really are. I see this as the domain of Fi. Someone more attuned to Fe may be more likely to mirror or take on the beliefs of others based upon the social reinforcement. It may be awhile before their Fe, or perhaps even Ti, catches up with them, resulting in dissatisfaction or disillusionment.

As for the T functions, I would expect Ti to demand consistency, Te to demand utility, and both to demand objective honesty. By this I mean that, if some aspect of faith is a paradox (inherently contradictory or illogical) that just must be accepted by the believer, one must be honest about this and not try to pretend it is somehow logical.

I tend to associate I/ENFJ with religious founders. The Ni allows Fe to promote an external social agenda that is different from existing norm, much as for E/INTJ it allows Te to promote an objective system different from the norm. If someone has Fi in their top few functions, then they also have Ne/Se, meaning that they deal with the external world primarily using a perceiving function. Such a person may have innovative spiritual thoughts, but less drive to promote them to others.

Here is my personal understanding of the difference between spirituality and religion:

Spirituality: attentiveness to a spiritual dimension of life, to include the possibility of deity or supreme being(s), a universal consciousness, the continuation of the soul/individual essence after physical death, etc. Faith in this context is what an individual actually believes about the above.

Religion: an established tradition or set of procedures, teachings, and structure within which to address spiritual matters. Faith in this context includes faith/confidence/acceptance that the procedures, teachings, and structure will be helpful in developing one's personal spirituality.
 
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