The main reason why J methods ..........

[Virtual ghost]

The main reason why J methods/approach can be ineffective is because there is alot of Ps around. True or False ?


Why ?

 

[Arclight]

False.. because not all J's agree on the same methods either.

Some day we should all understand, that when it comes to people .. there are no absolutes..

 

[tcda]

What is a J method?

 

[Virtual ghost]

What is a J method?

Structure, planning, goal oriented , isn't random ....... etc.

 

[KDude]

Yeah, my friend anally organizes his closet and shelves because of me, the Perceiver..who doesn't even live with him


A lot of things SJs do is for their own peace of mind.

 

[Phantonym]

Possibly true, possibly false.

With all the planning and stuff, you'd think that Js could also plan in the P factor. But you can never really take everything into account and you may want to try to "manipulate" people into doing stuff your way as much as you like but it just won't work.

 

[Poki]

The main reason why J methods/approach can be ineffective is because there is alot of Ps around. True or False ?


Why ?

True, if everything were all predictable then plans would always work.

 

[KDude]

When it comes to dealing with group activities or whatever, I still think it's for the J's peace of mind. I mean, this is all running under the assumption that P's are necessarily screwing things up. Which is not the case. I'm awesome. Ain't my problem if you have trust issues ;D

 

[miss fortune]

if you want to classify things like life and other Js as Ps sure!

there's a lot of reasons things don't work out as planned... it's definitley not the fault of Ps every time

plus, even if you got rid of all Ps and uncertainty the Js would fight over what to do :rolli:

 

[Virtual ghost]

if you want to classify things like life and other Js as Ps sure!

there's a lot of reasons things don't work out as planned... it's definitley not the fault of Ps every time

plus, even if you got rid of all Ps and uncertainty the Js would fight over what to do :rolli:

I never said that it is every time. What I proposed is that this is simply the most likely reason.


Also if there is no Ps or there is much less of them in general population it is quite likely that entire social and economic structure would be diffrent. Perhaps even quite different. (but this is another story)

 

[Arclight]

Of course there is also the consideration that the method in question isn't working simply because it is full of flaws and does not take into account the bigger picture.

If something fails, the most likely cause is itself.

 

[KDude]

I never said that it is every time. What I proposed is that this is simply the most likely reason.


Also if there is no Ps or there is much less of them in general population it is quite likely that entire social and economic structure would be diffrent. Perhaps even quite different. (but this is another story)

I don't know any INTJs (I think), but perhaps it's a different case with SJs, if you just consider the "functional" difference. I would think Si is far different than what you're trying to do.

I'm not even sure what to think of INTJs... they seem to have a bigger picture in mind or something, that (ideally) incorporates people into their plans according to their strengths, and kind of within their own space...instead of enforcing behavioral rules. I would use Phil Jackson as an example of this (since there's a recent thread on him). I might be veering off too much into sports talk, but he utilizes the Triangle offensive strategy that makes it EASIER for a big perciever like Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant to make even MORE reads...and to help them see how to get their team involved (instead of becoming ballhogs....and both were ballhogs before they had Phil).

[edit] basically, his managerial style is such that he creates systems that get people to play to their strengths even more, and in tandem, instead of finger wagging and shit.

 

[Poki]

I never said that it is every time. What I proposed is that this is simply the most likely reason.


Also if there is no Ps or there is much less of them in general population it is quite likely that entire social and economic structure would be diffrent. Perhaps even quite different. (but this is another story)

What causes J plans to fail is when a J decides to hold fast to a plan and not bend as things change. During the course of a plan things always change and you need to be able to modify your plan even if it means going against the original plan.

So basically the ultimate failure of a plan is not learning and adapting as the plan progresses. So Jness is what kills a Js plan.

The more someone controls the environment the more likely a plan will succeed as they are controlling the variables to keep the plan on track.

 

[INTPness]

Why ?

Basically because I don't want to do things YOUR way. This doesn't just go for all P's, it goes for other J's as well. I was raised by 2 J parents and they fought all the time in regards to who's way was right. I agreed with neither of them (or sometimes 1 of them) while they didn't agree with each other much of the time. 3 people, 3 different views.

There are a hundred ways to skin a cat. Why in the world do *some* J's think that everyone within a mile radius must skin the cat exactly the way they say it should be skinned? Out the 100 ways it can be done, a lot of J's will pick method #19 and decide that this is the only way that it can be done. Sorry, I'm going with method #83 today. Just like the J thinks I'm arbitrary or "rebellious" for picking a different method, I think the J is arbitrary for being so convinced that #19 is the only way it can be done.

Reasons why I won't do it your way:
a) I think there is a more efficient way
b) I think there is a better way, morally (if applicable)
c) I just don't feel like doing it your way. I'd rather do it another way this time (this is contextual; if it's a situation where me "going with the team" is better for the end result, then I have no problem going that route).

I've had a J telling me there was only 1 way to do something. It had to be done that way. I stopped what I was doing and literally performed the task right in front of him like 7 different ways - each time with the exact same result. So frustrating that the 1 way the J picks HAS TO BE RIGHT. Why does it have to be? Who said?

 

[Quinlan]

There are many unpredictable things that a J will have to deal with other than Ps.