• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Children don't need MBTI.

Vasilisa

Symbolic Herald
Joined
Feb 2, 2010
Messages
3,946
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
I could see it being used for good or for bad. I can see teachers or parents using it as a way to help understand and foster their childrens learning styles or behavior patterns. And I can see it being abused for tracking and stereotyping. I suppose children themselves could use and abuse it similar ways. I kind of wish I had known about it when I was younger because It may have helped me understand a little bit better why I felt so profoundly different. I am certain I would have loved to know about this when I was younger, if I could have learned about it on my own. But I can also understand how it can be hurtful to children. I have told the story here before how it was administered to me in high school in a way that I think was inappropriate where immediately following the scoring the instructor would call out a type and everyone who tested as that would have to stand in front of everyone and then walk en masse to form a group. It was really unpleasant for me to be singled out that way and I still remember feeling the dread and exposure which was unfair.
 

Tamske

Writing...
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
1,764
MBTI Type
ENTP
Nobody "needs" MBTI but people might "want" to use it. I want a structure to start from. To me, it's like using a coordinate system to characterize points in space.

In space, no point is more special than any other point. All points are equal. If you use coordinates, you choose one point as your king (the zero) and you choose three straight lines as the king's ministers (the x, y and z axis). Now you can call a point by it's relation to the zero and the axes - eg. (2,-1, 5). Is now (1,1,1) a better (more "positive") point than(-1,-1,-1)? Is (0,0,0) a REALLY special point? Is (1,1,1) closer to (99,99,99) than to (-1,-1,-1)? Of course not! You can choose another sign for the axes, you can choose another zero point, and no matter where you place your zero and your axes; (1,1,1) is always closer to (-1,-1,-1) than to (99,99,99).

Now MBTI sets a "zero" (xxxx) somewhere in the "space" of characters... it designates four axes... and we can do the same. Is an ESTJ better than an INFP (in my test I used negative numbers for I, N, F and P). Is an xxxx a really special type? Are two ESTJs always more alike than one of those ESTJs and an INFP?
If you understand my analogy, you know my answer...

The space isn't less beautiful or wonderful when you put some axes in it.
 

Weber

New member
Joined
Apr 5, 2010
Messages
202
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5
Why do adults have the need to compartmentalize every concept into something intellectually understandable?

...

Not being able to verbalize an idea, don't exclude the understanding of it

...

Does the popularity of MBTI and other similar systems stem from the fact that adults fear nothing more than chaos and the uncontrollable?

Spoken like a true P ;)
 

wildcat

New member
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
3,622
MBTI Type
INTP
Why do adults have the need to compartmentalize every concept into something intellectually understandable?


As an example you can throw around a word like communism, and the underlying theories, yet ask any citizen of a communist country and they know what it entails with a lot more clarity than your average educated economist.

Not being able to verbalize an idea, don't exclude the understanding of it

Most healthy children who interact with others know who the ESTP or the INFJ is in the flock, intuitively.
Does the popularity of MBTI and other similar systems stem from the fact that adults distrust their intuitive instincts and try to apply 'logical and rational' systems wherever possible?
Does the popularity of MBTI and other similar systems stem from the fact that adults fear nothing more than chaos and the uncontrollable?

A system like MBTI strips away the direct and transcendental character of a personality type, and place it into an easy computable and understandable, yet faulty idea, for rational, western adult consumption.

Which brings me back to the thought that personality types simply transcend for children. And healthy adults.
Yes. This is the way the brain developes. So sad.
 

TiNe_2_IP

New member
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Messages
41
MBTI Type
INTP
.
Which brings me back to the thought that personality types simply transcend for children. And healthy adults.
How do you get to be a healthy adult and what does that even look like?
Is a healthy adult the child that was accepted for who they were by their parents, teachers and peers? And does a 'healthy' adult then automatically accept and understand others who are nothing like them in personality and function?
If nothing else I think the MBTI can be one of many valuable tools in teaching tolerance and acceptance of ourselves and others.
'Hey I am OK and you're not weird!'
'I accept you but I don't still don't understand you'
'Ah! Now I have a better idea of 'you' and 'me', how can we accommodate each other?'
That is a recipe for growth. Individually and for society.

I think that that should be started in childhood.
I wouldn't sit a child down and get them to take the test and then expect them to study the concepts. I would use what I've learned as the parent and adult to understand where I can help and guide the child to firstly, accept and understand themselves and then to realize that others will be different and to accept and understand why and how to deal with others.
It's not the be all and end all but just another useful little tool in the kit of life.
Unfortunately, as with most things, there is a positive use and a negative use for it.

I also agree with InsatiableCuriosity that the concepts in MBTI could be invaluable in the education system, not sure how they would integrate it under a school system that by its nature can only function if it caters for the majority, but if they could tailor a set of curriculum standards to suit children based on their type and have it taught by those who understand that type then I believe that children who currently don't want to be taught or are considered 'unteachable' could be helped greatly.
 

Asterion

Ruler of the Stars
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
2,331
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Even in his own words, Carl was not a man of the Enlightenment. He, himself, says his work, "Personality Types", was not based on evidence and reason but he received inspiration from a 'guide'.

Carl was an ardent follower of the Führer. And Führer in German means 'guide'.

I thought Führer meant something more like emperor??

Why do adults have the need to compartmentalize every concept into something intellectually understandable?


As an example you can throw around a word like communism, and the underlying theories, yet ask any citizen of a communist country and they know what it entails with a lot more clarity than your average educated economist.

Well, the benefit of an average educated economist is that you can hire him/her within your own country and use his/her knowledge to benefit your country and it's people.

Not being able to verbalize an idea, don't exclude the understanding of it

Most healthy children who interact with others know who the ESTP or the INFJ is in the flock, intuitively.
Does the popularity of MBTI and other similar systems stem from the fact that adults distrust their intuitive instincts and try to apply 'logical and rational' systems wherever possible?
Does the popularity of MBTI and other similar systems stem from the fact that adults fear nothing more than chaos and the uncontrollable?

A system like MBTI strips away the direct and transcendental character of a personality type, and place it into an easy computable and understandable, yet faulty idea, for rational, western adult consumption.

Which brings me back to the thought that personality types simply transcend for children. And healthy adults.

In thermodynamics, there is a quantity that is called work. For work to take place, a system must be organized from chaos. For example, getting children to line up and hold hands so that they can safely cross the street is work. That's what MBTI does, and as far as I can tell, that's its only function. It's a tool, just like your watch, or your cell phone, and, as a consequence, a tool is only necessary if it's useful to you in some way. You're right though, MBTI isn't really useful to us at all, it's more like a toy for adults :cheese:
 

Asterion

Ruler of the Stars
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
2,331
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
George Orwell taught us, "Never use a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent".

Good jargon is like a good painting, if used correctly, it will describe a thousand words, right?
 

sculpting

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
4,148
wrt the OP, I think there is value in the typing of children-not to trap them in boxes or explain theories to them-but to teach their teachers about how children can differ.

It seems that SFJs are very often found in elementary education and have very little natural understanding of why the outlier children behave differently.

My 14 yo was on ritalin from 1st to 5th grade. While I debate the actual existence of ADHD as a disorder, having him labeled did give him some amount of breathing room to not fit into the confines of the SFJ world.

(His best year was in 2nd grade with an ENFP with no meds. He sat under his desk and played legos after finishing work. He would also work in the tee-pee sometimes. The children sat in the "family circle" and sang the "we are all together today" song to take attendance. Instead of christmas they celebrated the winter solstice. As an ENFP, this craziness worked very well for him.)

It is less about classifying the kids-which as the OP points out they already do naturally-and more about educating the teachers. That way children are not classified as "bad" but instead "different".
 

Katsuni

Priestess Of Syrinx
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Messages
1,238
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
3w4?
There's probably a few reasons, really...

First and foremost, children really don't "know" themselves, nor do they have any real inclination or desire to do so. They know whot they want, but not why they want it; the why there is irrelevant to them. A baby screams because it wants food; it doesn't care about the specifics that it's hungry, or whot hunger means, it just knows it wants to not feel in pain anymore. So, too, does this carry over to psychology... they know whot they want in life, generally "to have fun" or "a million jillion ice cream cones". Past that, they don't see much reason to understand their motivations behind such, or the mental processes that led them to such a desire, because it's irrelevant to them.

Adults, conversely, have developed their brains farther, as well as their social requirements. Most adults aren't really any better than children, honestly though. In my class at school, we had to do similar stuff, not MBTI directly, but same general concept... noone cared, they didn't see any connection between how they understand themselves and others relating to being capable of working together. MBTI and all other personality tests are just an attempt to quantify and explain the way the mind works, for ourselves, and others. If we understand how we think differently, and how we interact due to such, we can take advantage of this understanding and use it to better ourselves and those around us. Most adults don't progress past childhood in that manner, however. They know whot they want, and don't care why they want it. If yeu knew WHY yeu wanted it though, yeu might not need to continue to want it; or may find better ways to sate that desire indirectly.

There's also the matter that, as adults, we've been conditioned through school, government, parents, society as a whole, to classify and structure things, rather than understand it. The question of a child is "why?", the question of the adult is "where does it go?". It's strange, then, isn't it? That those who are least able to utilize the answer to 'why' are the ones most interested in asking it? Whereas those who could make use of such information, have been systematically conditioned to avoid such.

Strange stuff really.

But anyway, adults tend to try to rationally explain their world; the human brain is designed to create order from chaos anyway. As yeu grow older, it gets better at doing so, and doesn't accept "no clue, it just does!" very well anymore. If yeu look at a cloud, yeu can see 'order' appear... faces, shapes, whotever, clouds turn into things because yeur brain tries to craft order from chaos. As we progress, we are taught how to create order by labeling things into nice, tidy little bins. If it has a name and a number, then it is ordered.

Take for example, even myths, legends, and religions; many of these exist merely to explain that which we can't understand. Alot of the bible isn't direct religion, it's just mythology in large portions of it. Any time yeu see something explained by rather fanciful reasoning, it's generally just something people didn't understand and are trying to make sense of. The whole thing about like... how snakes have generally lost their legs, but some have vestigial remains, is explained back in the whole adam & eve story. It's not likely that happened at all, and it wouldn't make any sense anyways, since it'd require god to be an idiot for that to have occurred in that manner.

But anyway, these things are meant to explain things in an ordered sense. As we grow older, we require more in depth explanation. For a child, it's alright to just know "I don't like her >=O " but never have a reason as to WHY yeu don't like that person. Scoot forwards 20 years, and yeu want to understand whot exactly it is about her that yeu don't like. With that additional definition and clarification, yeu can perhaps learn to like her, or understand why certain behaviours irritate yeu and can recondition them to no longer exist. A child can't do that, usually.

So why don't kids need MBTI? Because it's abstract enough they can't understand it, because it doesn't hold direct relevance to their desires that they can see, and because they really don't need to know the intricate details of their own mind or others. They just don't care.

And so, they don't really value it. Because they have no need to understand themselves or others around them.

When they require that need, they'll explain things in their own way, whether it's through religion, MBTI, some other psychological profile, or whotever. They will order and categorize people as required.

For their age, however, all they need is "Nice, bully, mean, whiny, tattletale" and several other broad reaching terms that don't really accurately describe the person as a whole, merely just key aspects they've noticed.

They do still categorize people, obviously, it's just not as in depth because it's not required.
 

phthalocyanine

#005645
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
679
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sx
as an elementary/middle school student, i tutored younger kids in reading and english and i remember trying to formulate different methods for different learning styles...i think i was certainly aware that not everybody utilised the same skill sets equally....that strengths were more individual than universal... though i don't remember really going into depth as far as thinking about personality types or personal motivations. i didn't identify a need for that at that age, really. it was enough to identify strengths and weaknesses and to play upon the strengths to help others see what they really could do... it did make me a little upset to realize that teachers who only used one or two different methods might have been really alienating students who were simply not attuned to those learning styles, and as a result felt stupid because they struggled. it's hard to know what will be easy or hard for whom, and it's hard to accommodate everyone in a large group, of course....but i remember feeling very sad when i realized that school wasnt naturally as easy for others as for me (that it wasnt simply a question of attention or effort on their part), and that in some cases smart kids felt worthless as students because they didn't have the nurturance they needed to thrive.

but i don't think i would have understood MBTI well enough at that age. to gain something from any such system requires perspective that most kids (even the pretty clever ones) don't have.
 
G

Ginkgo

Guest
Why do adults have the need to compartmentalize every concept into something intellectually understandable?


As an example you can throw around a word like communism, and the underlying theories, yet ask any citizen of a communist country and they know what it entails with a lot more clarity than your average educated economist.

Not being able to verbalize an idea, don't exclude the understanding of it

Most healthy children who interact with others know who the ESTP or the INFJ is in the flock, intuitively.
Does the popularity of MBTI and other similar systems stem from the fact that adults distrust their intuitive instincts and try to apply 'logical and rational' systems wherever possible?
Does the popularity of MBTI and other similar systems stem from the fact that adults fear nothing more than chaos and the uncontrollable?

A system like MBTI strips away the direct and transcendental character of a personality type, and place it into an easy computable and understandable, yet faulty idea, for rational, western adult consumption.

Which brings me back to the thought that personality types simply transcend for children. And healthy adults.

Some people are actually made healthier by using consumable symbols such as MBTI to categorize their surroundings. The western world has been forming these kinds of nomenclatures, which deviate from standard language, for universal use in fields of science. This is why MBTI is considered to be a modular system - and no model accurately depicts what it is meant to.

You realize that you distinguish these transcendental characters because you're an INFP, and your most preferred function is Fi, a function that is antipodal to Ti, which focuses on models such as MBTI, correct?

If your personal preference is to assess people by their individual characteristics, the by all means, throw MBTI in the garbage - as it fails to encapsulate any sort of objective realism. But, just to be consistent, you should stop speaking all together, since our entire language mechanic is based on models such as MBTI. And don't tell others that they would otherwise be healthy, because there are some of us who find that models are the essence of how we learn.
 

Thalassa

Permabanned
Joined
May 3, 2009
Messages
25,183
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx
(His best year was in 2nd grade with an ENFP with no meds. He sat under his desk and played legos after finishing work. He would also work in the tee-pee sometimes. The children sat in the "family circle" and sang the "we are all together today" song to take attendance. Instead of christmas they celebrated the winter solstice. As an ENFP, this craziness worked very well for him.)

Sounds like a very cool teacher. There should be entire schools like that. I would still want to teach if there were.

It is less about classifying the kids-which as the OP points out they already do naturally-and more about educating the teachers. That way children are not classified as "bad" but instead "different".

I think you make an excellent point here.
 
Top