• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Children don't need MBTI.

Thalassa

Permabanned
Joined
May 3, 2009
Messages
25,183
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx
Since children are protected from physical abuse by lawful mandate, we must deploy psychological warfare. Have you seen these little fuckers?

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcqOgnQyXp4"]Damn[/YOUTUBE]

Wait, what? You can't even spank your kids anymore? What's this all about at the end there, her saying she'd go to jail for "whipping his behind?" That's not physical abuse.

I think that child needs a little less self-esteem. I remember watching this horrific set of statistics in a trailer for a documentary on American education the other day, and we fall far far behind all other developed countries in every area...except for being excessively high in "self-esteem."
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
Adults take care of children for a reason, not the other way around.

Yes, the hallmark of the child abuser is that they expect the child to meet the emotional needs of an adult.

When, as you say, it is right and proper for the adult to take care of the emotional needs of the child.

So child abuse is a perversion of the nourishing parent/child relationship.
 
G

Ginkgo

Guest
Wait, what? You can't even spank your kids anymore? What's this all about at the end there, her saying she'd go to jail for "whipping his behind?" That's not physical abuse.

I think that child needs a little less self-esteem. I remember watching this horrific set of statistics in a trailer for a documentary on American education the other day, and we fall far far behind all other developed countries in every area...except for being excessively high in "self-esteem."

No no, we need to use typology. That will surely set him straight. What would you say? ESTP?
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
...we fall far far behind all other developed countries in every area...except for being excessively high in "self-esteem."

Yes, if you are practising every second day for ten thousand hours in order to improve, then you give yourself self-respect as you slowly improve.

But, oddly enough, self-esteem is bestowed by others rather than earned by oneself.

And self-esteem is perfect for manipulating consumers - "After all, you deserve it", they tell us in their advertisements.
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
MBTI Type
ENFJ
Children don't use MBTI.

Children are also known for being one of nature's cruelest creatures.
 

LunarMoon

New member
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
309
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
3
As an example you can throw around a word like communism, and the underlying theories, yet ask any citizen of a communist country and they know what it entails with a lot more clarity than your average educated economist.
Which communist state are we referring to? I would not hesitate to say that your average educated economist knows a bit more about communism than a citizen from North Korea, who has been saturated with communist propaganda from birth with little else to refer to. The problem with populism and ‘folk wisdom’ is that time and time again it proves to be wrong.
Does the popularity of MBTI and other similar systems stem from the fact that adults distrust their intuitive instincts and try to apply 'logical and rational' systems wherever possible?
Although MBTI itself has several problems I, overall, would not begrudge the use of logic to extrapolate points about the world around us, within every concept if we must take it to the extreme. It is the most beneficial spoil of the Enlightenment and is the reason why little Timmy can receive medicine for his cough instead of allowing nature to take its course, while chalking it up to the gods simultaneously. So, yes, I do believe that adults should apply ‘logical and rational’ systems wherever possible, as we have the entire modern world to thank for that mindset.
A system like MBTI strips away the direct and transcendental character of a personality type, and place it into an easy computable and understandable, yet faulty idea, for rational, western adult consumption.
Again, I won’t argue with the faults of the MBTI but I do believe that certain personality systems such as the Big Five do offer several things of value, irrespective of the need for unnecessary order found in adults.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with this. Adults take care of children for a reason, not the other way around.
Yes, adults take care of children because they sprout from their loins and have legal custody over them. Not because adults are inherently wiser simply for being adults; the rather troubling statistics for child molestation and murder would beg to differ on that.
While I agree that there are definitely many things we as adults can learn from children and that it's wrong to stifle their natural creativity too much, adults have a more complex brain that children do.
How so and does neurological complexity really presume better judgment?
The adult brain even differs from an adolescent brain
By very little and not by any practical means for what’s being discussed; the majority of personality attributes and tastes are developed by early adolescence. Marketers know this. A teenager who is reckless and impulsive is likely to become an adult who is reckless and impulsive. Your average honor student who attends to his grades and maintains a position of responsibility within school clubs has far better judgment than the average adult who buys lottery tickets and rejoices in getting ‘plastered’, and will likely remain as such.
 

KDude

New member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
8,243
i probably got my ass beat with the best of them.

and worse.

my self esteem is such though that i still try to stand up for myself...not because anyone pampered me..but because i'm simply not going to take too much shit. it's not complicated.

and for the record, assbeatings sucked. i have a hard time looking at kids that way (granted i don't have any of my own, but still).
 

LunarMoon

New member
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
309
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
3
Does it not?

Complexity is an extremely subjective term. The brain of an elephant which is far larger than ours and by its nature has a larger amount of neurological connections can be argued to be more complex. Or perhaps the brain of rat: the entirety of it could occupy a 20 millimeter space yet they possess an intelligence that matches dogs and cats. Or perhaps we could argue that the brain of a cockroach is complex: a cockroach can live for several weeks without its head and brain. The remainders of its nervous system will upkeep its biological functions in the proceeding period. I’d love to be able to pull that trick off. But despite the arguable complexity of their neurological system many could also argue that a cockroach has inferior conscious judgment to a human being.
 

InsatiableCuriosity

New member
Joined
May 20, 2010
Messages
698
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5
I can see both sides of the argument here and agree that children should not take the testing BUT there needs to be a better framework in education with type/temperament aware educators and parents who can assist children to learn in the areas in which they have talent, and in ways that best suit their learning styles. At the moment we are creating a division by medicating those who don't do well in a linear environment into mediocrity.

From observation these tend to be very intelligent abstract and creative thinkers (and feelers). If we continue on this path then we will lose those with the potential to be great just because they are different and will create a generation of neurotics who believe that there is something wrong with them. Interestingly enough NPs and SPs seem to dominate this group of "misfits" we often refer to as having ADD.

My thoughts and observations on this loosely relate to a previous thread on Aspergers and Type and another current thread on Schizophrenia.

Before anyone accuses me of being elitist, I believe everyone has a talent of one sort or another. Those learning and working within their talent area will excel and enjoy the feeling and strive further because they want to! It is the only way for any society to work smarter rather than harder.

While I am not a lover of statistics, there is sufficient evidence of the predominant fields entered by each of the 16 types/temperaments.

If observation using type/temperament by parents and educators can assist young people to realise their potential then it is a valuable tool, albeit flawed.
 

Kasper

Diabolical
Joined
May 30, 2008
Messages
11,590
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
I thinking forcing MBTI on children is child abuse, actually. They don't yet have the maturity to discern that these labels aren't "who they are" and may feel compelled to live up to these labels to impress adults.

Heh. If a parent is attempting to use the system so the child has better self awareness about their behaviour and motivations along with a better understandings of their relationships with others it's hardly child abuse. You don't sit down with a 10 year old and talk about the theory of MBTI but you can talk about how and why people are different and make them aware of potential strengths and weaknesses.
 

Thalassa

Permabanned
Joined
May 3, 2009
Messages
25,183
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx
Yes, adults take care of children because they sprout from their loins and have legal custody over them. Not because adults are inherently wiser simply for being adults; the rather troubling statistics for child molestation and murder would beg to differ on that.

That makes up a very small percentage of the population, troubling though it may be.

How so and does neurological complexity really presume better judgment?

Ok - you let your children be the boss. Let me know how that works out for you. I am not a mother, but I have been around children my entire life, and used to baby-sit up to six children at a time when I was in my late teens. I did student observations of middle school aged children in public schools. I taught Sunday school to pre-schoolers. I also have two nephews and three nieces. I'm telling you, children are not born with inherently good judgement. That is why we teach them. Unfortunately, some children get poorly taught, and then they grow up to be broken adults.

A teenager who is reckless and impulsive is likely to become an adult who is reckless and impulsive. Your average honor student who attends to his grades and maintains a position of responsibility within school clubs has far better judgment than the average adult who buys lottery tickets and rejoices in getting ‘plastered’, and will likely remain as such.

You're very much overgeneralizing and I don't think that's the case necessarily because many adolescents go through a "wild phase" which they grow out of during their twenties. I've taken child development classes. What you're saying doesn't jive with what I've observed or been taught.
 

Arthur Schopenhauer

What is, is.
Joined
May 1, 2010
Messages
1,158
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5
Complexity is an extremely subjective term. The brain of an elephant which is far larger than ours and by its nature has a larger amount of neurological connections can be argued to be more complex. Or perhaps the brain of rat: the entirety of it could occupy a 20 millimeter space yet they possess an intelligence that matches dogs and cats. Or perhaps we could argue that the brain of a cockroach is complex: a cockroach can live for several weeks without its head and brain. The remainders of its nervous system will upkeep its biological functions in the proceeding period. I’d love to be able to pull that trick off. But despite the arguable complexity of their neurological system many could also argue that a cockroach has inferior conscious judgment to a human being.

We are talking about humans; and adult/child brain complexity affecting judgment capabilities, specifically.

What is your opinion on that?
 

lunalum

Super Senior Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2008
Messages
2,706
MBTI Type
ZNTP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Why do adults have the need to compartmentalize every concept into something intellectually understandable?

Ummm, for it to be intellectually understandable? Why would someone want to leave something not understood?

Does the popularity of MBTI and other similar systems stem from the fact that adults distrust their intuitive instincts and try to apply 'logical and rational' systems wherever possible?

For some of us, we simply lack these intincts... but for the 'normal' people, intutive instincts are very difficult to work with and communicate. They are so... fuzzy. But the intincts are (hopefully) not forgotten, they are just expanded upon by a system.

Does the popularity of MBTI and other similar systems stem from the fact that adults fear nothing more than chaos and the uncontrollable?

Yeah, a lot of adults fear chaos, but it is also that systems simply work better, are communicatable, and allow things to be intellectually understandable. I don't fear chaos: I face it head on, and analyze it like crazy :D

English has a vocabulary; MBTI has a jargon.

What do you mean by a 'jargon'? Isn't jargon simply a subset of vocabulary?
 

Lethe

Obsession.
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
801
MBTI Type
iNtJ
Enneagram
152
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Why use a proxy, when you have access to the real deal.

Because I like categorizing the real-deal. :D ;)

/Half Tongue-In-Cheek

I see MBTI has a means to communicate; a vocabulary.

But in all seriousness, I agree with Sytpg. MBTI is merely a communication form, a set of tools, yet not the only available set. It just contains the most useful tools I've personally encountered. I rely less on type than I do on functions. And I almost neglect any arbitrary category like gender, race, class, sexual-orientation, etc. These labels are important to the rest of the world, but they do little in persuading me to change my mind.

For example -- knowing that someone has Fe in the auxiliary or dominant position is very helpful for me because it's the one Je function I instinctively rebel against. "I need to respectfully value each living person" isn't enough for me to stop Te-ing the daylights out of that individual, because I think to myself --- I can do it, so why can't they? Or sometimes the situations are reversed and I'm left confused at the difficulty I have in doing what appears to be natural for other people.

And MBTI/Jung rectifies that. I understand what's blocking them from doing certain things, and how they can get around it. I intellectually recognize that "Wow, people are very, very different from me."

So MBTI/Jung is what you make of it. Either that can limit your perspective, or broaden your horizons. This is your choice. But I truly think it's naive to assume that without MBTI, people don't try to organize the "real deal" in some "me vs. you", "us vs. them", "mind vs. heart", etc. form. It's how we differentiate our surroundings. That's why we have theories to generally explain odd phenomenons, invented counting units like math & time, rally under groups that share our beliefs, and so on. If they are not relevant to what you seek, then throw it out. Yet, however, this alone doesn't take away the utility it has for someone else.

As another example, math is practically the mother language in physics. But in something completely messy, imperfect and subjective like relationships? It's as useful as the neighborhood troll. MBTI/Jung can be the same way. Their usefulness depends on how, why, when, where, what and who it is used for.
 

LunarMoon

New member
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
309
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
3
That makes up a very small percentage of the population, troubling though it may be.
An incident of child abuse is reported every ten seconds every day. Those are the reported cases; actual cases are estimated to be up three times that amount. And that's exactly why the statistics are as troubling as they are.
Ok - you let your children be the boss. Let me know how that works out for you. I am not a mother, but I have been around children my entire life, and used to baby-sit up to six children at a time when I was in my late teens. I did student observations of middle school aged children in public schools. I taught Sunday school to pre-schoolers. I also have two nephews and three nieces. I'm telling you, children are not born with inherently good judgement. That is why we teach them. Unfortunately, some children get poorly taught, and then they grow up to be broken adults.
I’m not arguing that children are born with good judgment though I would go off to state that there are enough children with better judgment than many adults that it’s not overly practical to make assumptions about their abilities. This is especially true for older children and teenagers. I’m also arguing that custody bestowed upon adult parents has little to do with their own judgment (most children are unplanned after all) but more to with the fact that there are lack of non-draconian alternatives. Anecdotal evidence isn’t particularly convincing. I assume that all of us here have been children, have associated with children, and many of us here are young enough to recall the experience firsthand rather vividly. I myself am less than 12 months removed from high school graduation so I have a bit of experience with teenagers.
You're very much overgeneralizing and I don't think that's the case necessarily because many adolescents go through a "wild phase" which they grow out of during their twenties. I've taken child development classes. What you're saying doesn't jive with what I've observed or been taught.
There's quite a bit of research on this but my statement about a stabilized development by early adolescence was by far the most conservative of the findings. Most psychologists believe that one's basic personality is actually developed as early as age 3. This includes the 'wild' behavior that you mentioned.
Children's Behavioral Styles at Age 3 are Linked to Their Adult Personality Traits at Age 26

We are talking about humans; and adult/child brain complexity affecting judgment capabilities, specifically.

What is your opinion on that?
The pattern still holds true for humans. Complexity is still an extremely subjective word and studies on animal biology can still provide valuable findings for human biology, which is why rats and chimpanzees are typically used to draw theories regarding human intelligence. The area of Albert Einstein's brain responsible for the analysis of language, for instance, was smaller, less developed, and arguably less complex than that of your average person but you could easily argue that he possessed better judgment on social issues and various causes than they do. In order to further probe the issue what we really need is a definition of "complexity". Roughly 90% of an individuals brain mass is developed by age six after all.
 
Top