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IP/EJ versus IJ/EP

Xander

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Okay this pattern was pointed out to me first by Wildcat and now I've been questioned on the logic behind the pattern and I come to compare types. I could use a little help as this just goes all big picture in my head.

IP/EJ both have their judging function listed as their primary function.
IJ/EP both have their perception function listed first.

Now I know the pattern exists, I'm just not familiar with why it exists or what the precise parallels are between the types.

Can anyone help me out here?
 

Athenian200

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IP/EJ both have their judging function listed as their primary function.
IJ/EP both have their perception function listed first.

Now I know the pattern exists, I'm just not familiar with why it exists or what the precise parallels are between the types.

As far as I can tell, the similarity between IP/EJ is that most of the information they receive is filtered through their Judging function... so they mostly find that which is related to what their minds are looking for (although it's less obvious if they're IP's, you can still see that underlying pattern in which observations they point to.)

EP's and IJ's mostly seem to take in as much information as possible and deal with it. The EP seems to just change as quickly as the new information comes in, while the IJ becomes aware of the information, but still tries to remain stable externally... sometimes, I think this even results me changing my viewpoint so much that I unconsciously change my mind about what I meant by things I've said previously. The difference is that I feel the need to stick to at least part of what I've already said in order to retain my integrity, even if I've already started to doubt myself. It's weird. For an IJ, it can result in being aware of something, but not being able to discuss it properly externally because it doesn't "fit," and spending a lot of time arranging/rearranging things so that it can fit. (Which is different, because EJ's and IP's usually don't seem to choose to ignore/omit anything they become aware of even temporarily, but are actually impaired in their ability to become aware of something that doesn't fit with their judgments in the first place... does that make sense?)
 

Xander

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As far as I can tell, the similarity between IP/EJ is that most of the information they receive is filtered through their Judging function... so they mostly find that which is related to what they're minds are looking for (although it's less obvious if they're IP's, you can still see that underlying pattern in which observations they point to.)

EP's and IJ's mostly seem to take in as much information as possible and deal with it. The EP seems to just change as quickly as the new information comes in, while the IJ becomes aware of the information, but still tries to remain stable externally... sometimes, I think this even results me changing my viewpoint so much that I unconsciously change my mind about what I meant by things I've said previously. The difference is that I feel the need to stick to at least part of what I've already said in order to retain my integrity, even if I've already started to doubt myself. It's weird. Also, it can result in being aware of something, but not being able to discuss it externally because it doesn't "fit."
Ah that makes sense with my observations. I always wondered why EPs and EJs seemed so diametrically opposite. It is less noticeable in introverts but I guess it's still true. Hence why it always takes me hours to argue with my INTJ friend. He's always got so many more instances to call upon, unlike me and my intuitional understanding, however I always get the nagging feeling that he's playing off of nonsequitous reasoning, perhaps the whole flood of information versus controlled input selection is what I'm picking up?

Oh ar and how come you're LN? I'd have placed you as more NG with a leaning on both axis. You been taking that online test or something?
 

Athenian200

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Ah that makes sense with my observations. I always wondered why EPs and EJs seemed so diametrically opposite. It is less noticeable in introverts but I guess it's still true. Hence why it always takes me hours to argue with my INTJ friend. He's always got so many more instances to call upon, unlike me and my intuitional understanding, however I always get the nagging feeling that he's playing off of nonsequitous reasoning, perhaps the whole flood of information versus controlled input selection is what I'm picking up?

Yes... I've actually felt like a small part of what I was saying was completely ignored and/or construed as something else when I was talking to an IP or EJ (more obvious with the latter than the former)... and sometimes had to rephrase it a few ways to make them conscious of it, only to have it either dismissed as insignificant, or appalling them with an important insight that makes them reassess several of their positions. Also, they both seem prone to saying really vague things that they think convey something specific, but there's really not enough information there to make the connections they're wanting me to make, and I have to ask them to clarify a few times. I think the only reason they "get" one another frequently in these cases is because both their minds apply something to the information before looking at it that puts it in context for them, so even if the information didn't actually contain that processing, it seems to contain it for them.
Oh ar and how come you're LN? I'd have placed you as more NG with a leaning on both axis. You been taking that online test or something?

Yes, that's what I got on an online test... you don't think I seem LN? You mean you haven't noticed how much I prefer order?
 

Totenkindly

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Yes... I've actually felt like a small part of what I was saying was completely ignored and construed as something else when I was talking to an IP or EJ (more obvious with the latter than the former)... and sometimes had to rephrase it a few ways to make them conscious of it, only to have it either dismissed as insignificant, or appalling them with an important insight that makes them reassess several of their positions.

You're not still mad at me, are you? :cry:

Yes, that's what I got on an online test... you don't think I seem LN?

What's LN? A code from that new MBTI sorter out there? (I don't recall.)

Anyway, those are some good insights, Ath. I'm still thinking through them.
 

Athenian200

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:yim_rolling_on_the_

I didn't, goof... I was just made up something that played off your post. :)

How did it play off my post? I didn't get it... I probably have a tendency to take things literally without qualifiers indicating the contrary. Sorry.


:doh:

Yes. NG -- that's me.

Well, of course... you want to see yourself as perfect and good. I'm not surprised. :)
 

Totenkindly

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How did it play off my post? I didn't get it... I probably have a tendency to take things literally without qualifiers indicating the contrary. Sorry.

:cheers:

Well, of course... you want to see yourself as adaptable perfect and good. I'm not surprised. :)

Fixed!

Yes, and you like things to fit neatly together, with ideal consistency.
 

Xander

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Yes... I've actually felt like a small part of what I was saying was completely ignored and/or construed as something else when I was talking to an IP or EJ (more obvious with the latter than the former)... and sometimes had to rephrase it a few ways to make them conscious of it, only to have it either dismissed as insignificant, or appalling them with an important insight that makes them reassess several of their positions. Also, they both seem prone to saying really vague things that they think convey something specific, but there's really not enough information there to make the connections they're wanting me to make, and I have to ask them to clarify a few times. I think the only reason they "get" one another frequently in these cases is because both their minds apply something to the information before looking at it that puts it in context for them, so even if the information didn't actually contain that processing, it seems to contain it for them.
That actually makes a lot of sense. I never thought of it that way. I'd just get a going over from an EP or an IJ and think "How did that go wrong?". Until you linked it to this I'd singularly failed to see that.

Thanks.
Yes, that's what I got on an online test... you don't think I seem LN? You mean you haven't noticed how much I prefer order?
Well perhaps LG but not absolute law, you're too clever to fall for that trap. Definitely more G than N though. I've never seen you as rules for rules sake or did I miss that clause in our communications contract? ;)

Oh and Jennifer, shame on you for not knowing standard D&D notation. -10 geek points :dont:
 

Totenkindly

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Well perhaps LG but not absolute law, you're too clever to fall for that trap. Definitely more G than N though. I've never seen you as rules for rules sake or did I miss that clause in our communications contract? ;)

No, Ath to me really does fixate (no judgment there!) on the "ideal" quality of the rule. It is not like she doesn't care about people, it's just that the consistency of the system seems very important regardless of a particular person's feelings about it.

Oh and Jennifer, shame on you for not knowing standard D&D notation. -10 geek points :dont:

My Neutral Good dagger (which also speaks five other alignment languages, plus kobold, drider, giant chipmunk, and aquatic slime troll, and can detect discarded copper buckles at 50 feet) is poking into the back of your spine right now -- so call off, geekboy!
 

Xander

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No, Ath to me really does fixate (no judgment there!) on the "ideal" quality of the rule. It is not like she doesn't care about people, it's just that the consistency of the system seems very important regardless of a particular person's feelings about it.
Yereckon? I always picked up the careful bit behind that where people are negotiated rather than obliterated.
(Sorry Athenian, you are here....we're just not speaking too you as it were ;) just about you :D )
My Neutral Good dagger (which also speaks five other alignment languages, plus kobold, drider, giant chipmunk, and aquatic slime troll, and can detect discarded copper buckles at 50 feet) is poking into the back of your spine right now -- so call off, geekboy!
*cough*
Kobolds speak draconic dear and trolls giant :smile:

Oh the wasted youth not spent rolling dice...
 

Athenian200

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That actually makes a lot of sense. I never thought of it that way. I'd just get a going over from an EP or an IJ and think "How did that go wrong?". Until you linked it to this I'd singularly failed to see that.

Was the thing that seemed to go wrong regarding your own perception of the situation, or the other persons perception of it? Can you give me an example?
Well perhaps LG but not absolute law, you're too clever to fall for that trap. Definitely more G than N though. I've never seen you as rules for rules sake or did I miss that clause in our communications contract? ;)

Well, thank you... I just assumed the alignment test was the best way to find your alignment, and I can be very rigid about rules being observed, and notice if anything is out of place.

She once referred to a PM as an e-mail. Trust me, she's hardly a geek... she just thinks she is (but she's still an interesting person, though).
 

Hypomanic

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Wow this makes a lot of sense.

My mom is ENTJ and my sis is INTP and they're both moral-focused.. if someone is morally corrupt they are quick to notice and care (express anger).

ENTP's and INTJ's are more fantasy-based (I'm not saying we're not moral.. I just don't think it's expressed as much or our first thoughts... as it may be with INTP's and ENTJ's).. I think INTJ's are easier to understand than INTP's. I especially have trouble figuring out ENTJ's.
 

Domino

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Interesting observations from everyone.

I can take a few turns with an IN/SFP or IN/STP without a scratch, but if I'm dealing with my ENTJ best friend, esp on a matter that's got her royally freaked out and irrational, I do best to listen quietly or pass the phone to my sister. Then again, Jaye and Athena are an ENFP-ENTJ dynamic and they get each other in spades. I get INTJs too. Wrangling with an ENTP on their home turf can be a handful sometimes, but they're always like that. ;) :D
 

FDG

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Generally EJ and IP are just better at interacting in the world in a "natural" fashion. They see things just as they are, and they choose either to act on it or ignore it. EPs and IJs tend to have a nagging need to organize reality in a particular way before being able to recognize-act on it. With EJ and IP organization only becomes visible after action, with IJ EP first becomes organization, then action.
 

Hypomanic

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Generally EJ and IP are just better at interacting in the world in a "natural" fashion. They see things just as they are, and they choose either to act on it or ignore it. EPs and IJs tend to have a nagging need to organize reality in a particular way before being able to recognize-act on it. With EJ and IP organization only becomes visible after action, with IJ EP first becomes organization, then action.

Wow what an intelligent thing to say!
Yeah I was going to mention something like.. INTJ's and ENTP's pick up only the information that fits into their plan.. whatever that may be. They can miss stuff right in front of their eyes because of this... not a bad thing, just a thing. Then I think about morals (aka what's apparent right off the bat for ENTJ's and INTP's).
 

FDG

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Wow what an intelligent thing to say!
Yeah I was going to mention something like.. INTJ's and ENTP's pick up only the information that fits into their plan.. whatever that may be. They can miss stuff right in front of their eyes because of this... not a bad thing, just a thing. Then I think about morals (aka what's apparent right off the bat for ENTJ's and INTP's).

Well...I think you're really agreeing with me right?:D
 

Xander

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Was the thing that seemed to go wrong regarding your own perception of the situation, or the other persons perception of it? Can you give me an example?
Well I think I've fallen fowl of misreading you yourself before now.

A concrete example :thinking: that would be difficult. I have noted before though that I've read and replied to an IJ before (dunno who, it's a generic pattern thing) and they've come back semi berating me for missing questions or parts of the subject which were important. It often leaves me confused because I'd considered them trivialities or side point and had almost filtered them out before I'd even read them. It makes sense that a person who drinks the barrel dry and then thinks about it would find that irritating.
Well, thank you... I just assumed the alignment test was the best way to find your alignment, and I can be very rigid about rules being observed, and notice if anything is out of place.
Best way, I find, is to ask others and compare it to your own internal model. Something about being only able to see two panes in the Johari window.
Interesting observations from everyone.
:yes: Everyone's getting rep points for their gems here.... as long as I remember this time :whistling:
I can take a few turns with an IN/SFP or IN/STP without a scratch, but if I'm dealing with my ENTJ best friend, esp on a matter that's got her royally freaked out and irrational, I do best to listen quietly or pass the phone to my sister. Then again, Jaye and Athena are an ENFP-ENTJ dynamic and they get each other in spades. I get INTJs too. Wrangling with an ENTP on their home turf can be a handful sometimes, but they're always like that. ;) :D
Odd that you'd find an ENTJ hard work. My sister is an ENFJ and my father is an ENTJ and they are as thick as thieves most of the time. Each can reveal the flipside to the other. She can map my fathers emotions very well and he can map her thoughts. I, on the other hand, just get told I'm disorganised and chaotic :D
Generally EJ and IP are just better at interacting in the world in a "natural" fashion. They see things just as they are, and they choose either to act on it or ignore it. EPs and IJs tend to have a nagging need to organize reality in a particular way before being able to recognize-act on it. With EJ and IP organization only becomes visible after action, with IJ EP first becomes organization, then action.
That's odd. What you said appears to contradict what Athenian was saying earlier on first reading and yet it fits in perfectly. What you've describe is kind of stage two after the person has either selected and picked up the "relevant" information or drank the barrel dry.

Very astute and very helpful.
Wow what an intelligent thing to say!
Yeah I was going to mention something like.. INTJ's and ENTP's pick up only the information that fits into their plan.. whatever that may be. They can miss stuff right in front of their eyes because of this... not a bad thing, just a thing. Then I think about morals (aka what's apparent right off the bat for ENTJ's and INTP's).
:eek: an ENTP who admits to it!!!

:D

Bet my INTJ mate would not admit to such an illogical behaviour.

Not sure about morals as in the standard definition but if you're talking in terms of what fits, what flows naturally and what is expected then yes I guess the EJs and IPs are usually better predictors.

I wonder if that could be a useful title.
EJ/IP = Predictor.
EP/IJ = ???? (Reactor???)
 
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