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Why do people freak out over individuality?

simulatedworld

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You don't see type preferences play out in interactions ALL THE DAMN TIME? To the point of people turning themselves into stereotypes--all the damn time?

Like, there's an impressive amount of type-based prejudice against typology, in my humble opinion. People emphasizing their F side dislike the apparent depersonalization, people emphasizing non-judgmentalism dislike the apparent fixity of the rules, people looking for conceptual adequacy dislike the seeming sui generis-ness of it all... (And me, I like it because it appears to work... lo and behold, type preferences playing out again, people seeking effective, efficient answers....)

But ultimately, do you have anything other than personal preferences as dictated by your cognitive preferences against the system?

Or does the disagreement all come from somewhere else?


Hahah, +1,000,000!

Brilliant post. I absolutely do see the type interactions play out all the time, and people have no idea.

Of course, when I point it out, people tell me type can't run that deep--but it does. It's visible everywhere in almost everything people do. The fact that you [generic you here, not Kalach] can't see it doesn't mean it's not there.
 

cascadeco

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Everyone is a unique individual and categorizable at the same time, and that's not a contradiction.

Yeah, I think that pretty much sums it up.

We obviously have our quirks, but to the OP, much of what we might deem utterly unique is really being played out by millions or hundreds of millions around the world. Like, when I realized a while back that my thoughts and beliefs have been played out countless times throughout history, well, that was a little sobering. I'm really not THAT special when it comes to a lot of that. :laugh: But, ALL aspects of myself and my interests, and life experiences, taken in their entirety? Well, there's only one me when it comes to that.
 

simulatedworld

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Yeah, I think that pretty much sums it up.

We obviously have our quirks, but to the OP, much of what we might deem utterly unique is really being played out by millions or hundreds of millions around the world.

Somebody tell that to Fi! :jew:
 

Kalach

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I think if there is such a thing as a determinate and discoverable function order, then individuality is as easy as recognising and addressing your built in (cognitive) strengths and weaknesses, and associating them with your own history and circumstance. It expands your mind to encompass (without having to perform) the functions and requirements of other people.

Naturally then it would seem important to ask, is there a determinate and discoverable function order?

I don't have much choice, I'm going to say there is.
 

Ivy

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Several posts moved to off-topic posts. There's no need to bring what happened in another thread into this one and attempt to bait the OP into engaging again. This is a warning.
 

Kalach

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So a personality is structured, what of it? Is it better to have unstructured personalities? Is that even a concept, a personality without structure? Let's assume for the moment that you've all had your perspectives and priorities satisfied so that we don't have to quibble over investigative methodology--as in we don't have to argue over whether we should be defining words, or letting people be people, or considering every possibility before we settle, etc--and in that case, how hard is it to accept that personalities are structured and that substantial portions of our conscious concerns arrive not through choice, but via priorities set up to service prior personality structure. And not only that, but choice, real serious choice, doesn't exist if prior personality structure doesn't exist. That is, your personality type is logically, metaphysically, and practically prior to your conscious rule over the world. Without a personality type, you wouldn't have a personality.

Or would you?
 

Southern Kross

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You don't see type preferences play out in interactions ALL THE DAMN TIME? To the point of people turning themselves into stereotypes--all the damn time?

Like, there's an impressive amount of type-based prejudice against typology, in my humble opinion. People emphasizing their F side dislike the apparent depersonalization, people emphasizing non-judgmentalism dislike the apparent fixity of the rules, people looking for conceptual adequacy dislike the seeming sui generis-ness of it all... (And me, I like it because it appears to work... lo and behold, type preferences playing out again, people seeking effective, efficient answers....)

But ultimately, do you have anything other than personal preferences as dictated by your cognitive preferences against the system?

Or does the disagreement all come from somewhere else?
Its the ye olde structuralism vs post-structuralism debate being played out yet again. Its nothing new. To me, categorisation and generalisations are essential for us to analyse and understand the world and aren't a major threat to individuality.

And just remember, you're unique just like everybody else...
 

Kalach

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^ essential, but not descriptive?


So anyway, functions... are they real? Do they and their ordering determine personality?

Well, yeah. So, who sees reality for what it is?

Now I don't know if this is true, but I've been assuming it's possible to if not effectually see through the eyes of another, then at least know that others have different eyes. (And when I say "eyes" I mean minds, obviously.) This hardly seems a novel idea, but add to it personal demands--the requirements your personality places on you and therefore the demands you place on others--and what arrives?

Is it possible to meaningfully escape your own perspective?
 

Southern Kross

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^ essential, but not descriptive?


So anyway, functions... are they real? Do they and their ordering determine personality?

Well, yeah. So, who sees reality for what it is?

Now I don't know if this is true, but I've been assuming it's possible to if not effectually see through the eyes of another, then at least know that others have different eyes. (And when I say "eyes" I mean minds, obviously.) This hardly seems a novel idea, but add to it personal demands--the requirements your personality places on you and therefore the demands you place on others--and what arrives?

Is it possible to meaningfully escape your own perspective?
It would be nice to think a person can reach a degree of true objectivity but I doubt if its possible. There are limitations on everyone in their ability to assume the perspective of another. Even in an attempt to see through the eyes of another, you view will be coloured if not distorted by your personal bias - ie what matters to you, how you would want to be treated etc
 

Kalach

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I have the impression that it's more than that. It seems to me that type actively blinds one to other perspectives. It would have to if dichotomies and orientations were real. The consciousness would actively lean far further one way than another, in effect shunning the other side of the orientation and dichotomy. What's more, the existence of a determinate function order would play out as actively moving ourselves to where dominant/auxiliary priorities win.

Priorities compete, in other words. Yet, personality won't exist without this competition. Or will it?

And to some large degree all of this is prior to personal choice. It comes before individuality.

Or does it?
 

Windigo

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Brian: Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't need to follow me, you don't need to follow anybody! You've got to think for yourselves! You're all individuals!
The Crowd (in unison): Yes! We're all individuals!
Brian: You're all different!
The Crowd (in unison): Yes, we are all different!
Man in Crowd: I'm not.
Random Man: Shhh!
 

Betty Blue

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Brian: Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't need to follow me, you don't need to follow anybody! You've got to think for yourselves! You're all individuals!
The Crowd (in unison): Yes! We're all individuals!
Brian: You're all different!
The Crowd (in unison): Yes, we are all different!
Man in Crowd: I'm not.
Random Man: Shhh!


"He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy, now piss off!"
*chuckles*
 

Kurt.Is.God

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"He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy, now piss off!"
*chuckles*

heh. heh. i'm sorry. i really need to stop making this sort of joke. it's really not funny...
 

Kalach

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So this thing were people run on rails... they do, y'know, like slaves to functional preferences. From the inside it doesn't look like rails. From the inside you're working what you've got and you've got a lot. From the outside... knee-jerk responsiveness, determined sphere of influence and concern, over-blown (aka "universal") metaphysics, all that crap, as if everyone else were just like you only dumber. Soap opera characters. Doing the same things again and again, generating the same kind of situation again and again, favouring the same kind of outcome. Again and again.

Individuality would lie in individuation, the ability to recognise the nature of the "again and again" process, wouldn't it? Or if not recognise, then at least form some habit of addressing. Which doesn't necessarily mean you have to marry MBTI, but... what else is there free from the idiosyncrasies of your own perspectives? To actually perform the individuation doesn't require MBTI nor typology, of course, but what else is the process if not addressing one's own persistent perspectives?
 

Kalach

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Which naturally raises the question, just how hardcore are your "perspectives"? Functions, in other words. Do they come in low and high varieties, weak and strong flavours, mildly preferred versus all out lovin' it?

Well, there's the traditional distinction no one remembers, that test results are a measure of the conscious clarity with which you apprehend the existence of your perspectives. The difference between a test result and an actual perspective is the difference between saying and being. Or, as in the case of functions, being constituted by. What people usually call "having" or "using".

See, if cognitive functions are anything, they're constitutive of your psyche. They aren't tools. They're foundations. So, do they come in stronger and weaker varietals? Would you want them to? If they did come in stronger and weaker forms, which one would you buy?
 

Kalach

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I'm going to go with the idea that "stronger" and "weaker" is a measure not of the function, but of a person's aware attachment to whatever perspective goes with whichever function. And then I'll say there is to no great conscious extent anything other than what a type says you've got. This nonsense of using alt-functions isn't true. One's psyche is dominated, controlled, governed, by, and all round holistically engineered to service, one's dominant function. The other functions are add-ons, and, statistically, appear in conscious processing about as often as their position on the function tables suggest, higher meaning more often, lower meaning less. To a very large extent, your dominant function is what you do, and more or less nothing else. The rest of it, all the other functions, is nuance. And the lower down the function order, the less control, the more apparent the rails.

That doesn't mean the lower level functions are to be pitied in their weakness. They aren't weak. Weakly conscious, yes, but not weak in and of themselves. But weakly conscious means they're not that much of what you're about. They'll affect the direction of thought and personality, but not... well, consciously.

*sigh* This stuff is already well-known, right? Accepted. It's canon. It's what people are. Isn't it?



OOoo, but wait... conscious drawing of functions out of prescribed positions... that happens. A life spent attending to concerns other than those one was made for... that'll bring to prominence other functions. Or will it? Wouldn't it just make a crippled psyche? Misshapen and abused. How meaningful is function order?
 

the state i am in

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And then I'll say there is to no great conscious extent anything other than what a type says you've got. This nonsense of using alt-functions isn't true. One's psyche is dominated, controlled, governed, by, and all round holistically engineered to service, one's dominant function. The other functions are add-ons, and, statistically, appear in conscious processing about as often as their position on the function tables suggest, higher meaning more often, lower meaning less. To a very large extent, your dominant function is what you do, and more or less nothing else. The rest of it, all the other functions, is nuance.

i just see your dominant function as where you begin. the oldest version of conscious (I, me, the self) you. to say that the rest are just in service privileges the dominant function in a way that seems unnecessary. what seems more important is the activation path. you expand your conscious vision and behavior inhibition (long-term motivation) by activating other functions that create a balanced system. the system is always more important than the dominant function. the dominant function is just the most conscious and trusted. so it feels most like home.
 

Kalach

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i just see your dominant function as where you begin. the oldest version of conscious (I, me, the self) you. to say that the rest are just in service privileges the dominant function in a way that seems unnecessary. what seems more important is the activation path. you expand your conscious vision and behavior inhibition (long-term motivation) by activating other functions that create a balanced system. the system is always more important than the dominant function. the dominant function is just the most conscious and trusted. so it feels most like home.

And it's important to one day leave home? Sounds reasonable. But I'd like to see some description of some mechanism. Actually, if there were a description of that mechanism, a description of what cognitive maturation is, that'd be cool. How conscious is the process of maturation, I wonder. Technically, since it is the maturation of consciousness, it should have some conscious component. But it seems like there has to be some large unconscious component too. Where the original foundation comes from perhaps. And this does or doesn't shape, even limit, the conscious possibilities?
 

sculpting

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Urggh, fine I'll play...

Doing the same things again and again, generating the same kind of situation again and again, favouring the same kind of outcome. Again and again.

of course.

Individuality would lie in individuation, the ability to recognise the nature of the "again and again" process, wouldn't it? Or if not recognise, then at least form some habit of addressing. Which doesn't necessarily mean you have to marry MBTI, but... what else is there free from the idiosyncrasies of your own perspectives? To actually perform the individuation doesn't require MBTI nor typology, of course, but what else is the process if not addressing one's own persistent perspectives?

I have yet to see a good definition of individuation, so who knows what it really means. To become more healthy? What is that?

As for the bold, MBTI gives a nice skeletal framework-but it doesnt really supply a toolkit to move beyond the frame. To modify the skeleton, look to the wide variety of mediative techniques. Mindful meditation for instance strengthens Se, even in an NFP. Meditation with the goal of detachment moves you away from Fi and towards a state of Fe-but note how the buddhist monks describe it as being almost painful at first to go through that detachment process.

My knowledge fails me here-but doesnt a lot of cognitive psychology emphasize the ability to step above and meta-observe your own behaviors-then choose to do something else. That meta observation is a learned tool. But first you have to know what the patterns of behavior are-which can easily be determined based upon MBTI.

Perhaps the most promising tool may be nuero-linguistic programming, in spite of its questionable rep. It is a very diverse toolkit-with no basis in theory-thus it's results can be pretty sketchy-as certain things may only work with certain MBTI types. Yet you can seriously fuck up your own mind if you play with it. Based upon work my entp and I have seen and done, it appears to allow swapping of functions and simultaneous use of functions. The results are very strange and extremely obvious to the person.

Even something as simple as focusing primarily on optimism, dismissing negative thoughts and dismissing your sense of self pride, finding humility? That is Te/Fi moving towards Fe-but it sucks to do so.

See, if cognitive functions are anything, they're constitutive of your psyche. They aren't tools. They're foundations. So, do they come in stronger and weaker varietals? Would you want them to? If they did come in stronger and weaker forms, which one would you buy?

I'd suggest the hypothosis that functional strength is genetic-perhaps epigenetic. This is pure BS guessing, but I see accelerated Te usage in every EXFP in my family-from early childhood. If it is stressed imposed, via the mother, it may be epigenetic. In a stressful situation this would be a good thing-an EXFP cannot afford to be kind if there is not enough food available. Thus social stress shapes cogntive strength-perhaps epigentically. But all Ne....

That doesn't mean the lower level functions are to be pitied in their weakness. They aren't weak. Weakly conscious, yes, but not weak in and of themselves. But weakly conscious means they're not that much of what you're about. They'll affect the direction of thought and personality, but not... well, consciously.

I would suggest if you manage to pull them from the depths-they can be exceptionally strong in their power-but exceptionally simplistic in how they work. Assuming a biological basis-you are turning a switch that is opening up entire dormant pathway-the pathway hasnt had pruning. Strength does not equal maturity.

OOoo, but wait... conscious drawing of functions out of prescribed positions... that happens. A life spent attending to concerns other than those one was made for... that'll bring to prominence other functions. Or will it? Wouldn't it just make a crippled psyche? Misshapen and abused. How meaningful is function order?

It makes for ENFPs who move into executive positions. ;) It makes for utterly fascinating people who actually are more interesting than the norm. I went to dinner with a nobal prize winner in genetics the other night. He said to cherish those who are different as evolution eliminates them. Yet because they are different, they have perspectives that the rest of us do not have-insight. Thus you should listen to these "crippled" individuals as they have stepped outside of the 16 boxes and perceive and jundge in unexpected ways.

And it's important to one day leave home? Sounds reasonable. But I'd like to see some description of some mechanism. Actually, if there were a description of that mechanism, a description of what cognitive maturation is, that'd be cool. How conscious is the process of maturation, I wonder. Technically, since it is the maturation of consciousness, it should have some conscious component. But it seems like there has to be some large unconscious component too. Where the original foundation comes from perhaps. And this does or doesn't shape, even limit, the conscious possibilities?

Cognitive maturation. To develop a function you must use the function-so says my mbti instructor. But to use it is to fuck up. I'd suggest to never look at cognitive functiuon in isolation-look at the pairs. Ne-Fi, Fi-Si, Te-Si for enfps-but for intjs Ni-Te, Fi-Se, and then Te-Se???? Yeah i dunno....

And a nice quote to end on, just to remind us of why it is we may sometimes act in more negative ways... we really are all just patterns in the end. We will lash out to defend the cognitive function that most closely identifies with our ego. However maturation of that function-that requires stepping away from that defensive reaction-inserting a pause.

I still suffer from feelings of inferiority, although, they are usually caused by my idea of what I should be (self-imposed standards I can't meet), rather than comparisons of myself to others. I usually don't find other people intimidating, but those that I do, are people that irritate me. Those irritating people are quickly put through a systematic mental breakdown, in which every one of their flaws are thrown onto the table in an effort to make them small again. Now, People that have desirable qualities, and don't irritate me, are secretly admired; idolized even.

No one is perfect though, because no one can be perfect.
 

Kalach

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i just see your dominant function as where you begin. the oldest version of conscious (I, me, the self) you. to say that the rest are just in service privileges the dominant function in a way that seems unnecessary. what seems more important is the activation path. you expand your conscious vision and behavior inhibition (long-term motivation) by activating other functions that create a balanced system. the system is always more important than the dominant function. the dominant function is just the most conscious and trusted. so it feels most like home.

Jung spoke of libido and natural gradients. This is of course just a name, not a mechanism, but it would seem to flag the existence of a limited number of activation paths. Indeed, it would seem to suggest that it's possible to make rational choices that in no way accord with what your psyche can actually accomplish.

Mmmmm... libido...

What is libido? Creative energy? The direction and directing of conscious attention? Where does that come from?
 
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