Male NFs vs. Female NTs: Who has it harder?

[Amethyst]

Depends on the strength of F/T. Assuming that both are strong I would say that:

Male NF: Earlier can easily find struggles in school socially, but because of being an F can probably find very reliable social security through family/few friends/girlfriend, what have you. Probably might suffer in relationships for being too sensitive, maybe in school and career as well.

Female NT: Biased, but I believe this is worse, I'll just go from personal experience from this. I've been called selfish, autistic, whatever by most of my friends. I lost most of my friends because they are the embodiment of pure F and nothing else, and even me breathing to them was offensive. I've become asexual because I don't have a chance in hell of ever getting a date, nor, after seeing everyone fail in relationships, do I want to try. I know it's a little extreme, but personally I feel like it's worse for whatever you value more. If you value the opposite, I guess it'd say it'd be extremely difficult.

 

[Amethyst]

I've seen too many ENTP women do just fine socially and romantically

Haha, girl, I'm your exception XD

 

[EJCC]

it's not the easiest thing being an ST woman either- we're apt at manly tasks, which is a threat... plus, the thinking edge always displeases the traditionalists

I dunno, actually. I've found that I gain a lot of respect from men simply by being me. My male ENFJ friend told me once that I "command respect", which was pretty cool, especially when I realized he was right; I can't think of a single person off the top of my head who doesn't respect me. (I don't mean to sound like I'm bragging here. It's very possible that people disrespect me and I don't notice.) I think, because of that, I don't really have it hard at all.

... except for the issue of getting a date. In that regard, it's way easier for F guys, I think, because women seem to be trained from a young age to want a "sensitive guy", and male NFs are just that. But no guys are trained to want a tough, tomboyish go-getter...

 

[Epiphany]

... except for the issue of getting a date. In that regard, it's way easier for F guys, I think, because women seem to be trained from a young age to want a "sensitive guy", and male NFs are just that. But no guys are trained to want a tough, tomboyish go-getter...

"Yeeeaaahhhh.....I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there."

I'm not sure what you mean by 'women are trained at a young age to want a sensitive guy.' I think women, especially young or immature ones, are attracted to the exact opposite. That's why the stereotype exists that women like jerks. Some women will downright admit that they are attracted to arrogant, self-centered assholes; others will deny it. I think it would be accurate to say that...given the option between choosing a sensitive guy or a non-sensitive guy, most women would choose the latter even if they claim they would prefer the former.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Now that's taking it too far. ENTP women have it easier socially and romantically than you as an INFP women? And INTx women may as well? Heh. Step outside your bubble, maybe you specifically have a tough-tough life but pha-leeeese! My empirical evidence conflicts with yours.

News flash: No one has it easy! Life is not easy. And one persons dramas are not easier than another from their personal perspective because no one has it easy.

Right, your experience differs, and that's all this thread will amount to: anecdotal experience & half-baked theory. I don't see any reason to jump down my throat.

And no one may have it easy, but some may have it easier. To say that all people go through life with the same level of ease is ridiculous.

 

[EJCC]

"Yeeeaaahhhh.....I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there."

Win! I love Office Space... and Lumbergh is SO ESTJ... lol!

I'm not sure what you mean by 'women are trained at a young age to want a sensitive guy.'

I mean that in many romantic movies, and kid's movies with romance elements, that I've seen, this thought process has existed with the heroine: "All the other guys I've liked have been jerks/meatheads/insensitive. But THIS one is DIFFERENT because HE is SENSITIVE." Either that, or the guy starts off as a meathead/jerk and embraces/reveals his sensitive side by the end, proving to all the girls in the audience that they just need to wait for that special, sensitive guy to come along...

Examples:
"She's The Man"
"The Princess and the Frog"
The Twilight Saga
Most other movies where a guy "sweeps (the heroine) off her feet"

Also, it seems like girls are taught in fairy stories that they should wait for their Prince Charming, who will sweep them off their feet and be romantic and loving and very, very Fe and Ni. Lol, I have an ENFJ friend who's convinced that Disney movies are meant to train girls to fall in love with gay guys. Of course, the ENFJ friend in question IS a gay guy, so...

I think women, especially young or immature ones, are attracted to the exact opposite. That's why the stereotype exists that women like jerks. Some women will downright admit that they are attracted to arrogant, self-centered assholes; others will deny it. I think it would be accurate to say that...given the option between choosing a sensitive guy or a non-sensitive guy, most women would choose the latter even if they claim they would prefer the former.

You're probably right. But the fact that so many women DO claim the former is what confuses me - especially when those women are often sensitive to the point that I feel like they'd need more of a tough guy to balance them out. (Not too tough a guy, though - I agree with you about the "exact opposite" thing.) Just like how, even though I think bad boys are pretty sexy, in terms of balancing out my personality and "completing me", so to speak, I'd probably need a slightly more emotion-savvy type of guy.

 

[Synapse]

You're probably right. But the fact that so many women DO claim the former is what confuses me - especially when those women are often sensitive to the point that I feel like they'd need more of a tough guy to balance them out. (Not too tough a guy, though - I agree with you about the "exact opposite" thing.) Just like how, even though I think bad boys are pretty sexy, in terms of balancing out my personality and "completing me", so to speak, I'd probably need a slightly more emotion-savvy type of guy.

He isn't probably right...he's very right.

The reason is simple and this goes back to testosterone and the ability for the male to be male. Its the conditioning of society that does it like some of the films you've listed. The expectations are subconscious imprints of the mirroring behind society, our role models and the people we most look up to, we then tend to attract to those qualities, send out signals and mysteriously find our attraction drawn to those qualities that our subconscious triggers as most attractive.

Based on biology too, very much, the person who can expand his territory most, the person who can fend off the most, acquire the most, position himself in the most influence tends to be seen in high regard. Its the ability to prove themselves in the eyes of their affection. Which goes back to the alpha, omega, beta subsets. You are most inclined towards certain behaviour traits than others simply put, because they are seen as healthy in your mind. What is seen as healthy you are attracted to. And sensitive is not seen as a healthy trait, more like a coping mechanism.

Say from a physical point of view you'll find ripped abs to mean strength, fitness, fertility. The symbology behind these ideas are very much placed in the psyche and expressed outwardly. Like a piece of code, a genetic code in fact that could go back to original programming of survival of the fittest, healthiest, most mentally stable etc it would seem.

 

[goodgrief]

Haha, girl, I'm your exception XD

That's because you're a goblin.

 

[JocktheMotie]

Female NTs. Don't think it's even close to be honest. If anything, the mature NF male is practically the female ideal. I'm mainly considering society's views on each though, comparing the difficulty of personal journeys really can't be done. The NT female may deal with the external pressure a bit better internally, but her path is considerably more difficult when compared against the NF male's, partly because he's still a male.

 

[goodgrief]

I disagree. In terms of workplace, gender equality has almost been reached, and an NT would have an easier time than an NF in most of these, due to their lack of emotiveness and ability to adopt a 'get the job done' mentality (though STs are better at that generally). Relationship wise, many men now like strong, independent women, but few women seem to like feeling men, as it is considered a feminine trait. Especially NFs, who can be considered dreamy or sometimes preachy.

 

[JocktheMotie]

A lot of men say they want strong, independent women, but then get all pissed off when they actually display their strength and independence by defying their expectations. The crux of the matter is that females have it worse than males already, tossing in NTness in an SJ world just makes it worse. For the NF male, well, at least he's still a male.

Plus, isn't Edward from Twilight an NF male? Case closed.

 

[Moiety]

I think it's unwise to assume males have advantages in most everything, compared to females.... specially nowadays. Men have some distinct advantages in "western" society, but women have some equally distinct advantages. On the whole I don't think men are any better equipment to tackle life and I must say it kinda irks me to hear people perpetuating (I don't mean you per se Jock) that idea. Mostly because when it comes to social conduct and stuff...self-fulfilling prophecies are really common.


That being said, I have no idea how to answer the topics question. I certainly don't think being an NF male or an NT female is a bad omen...on the contrary actually. It's just a matter of learning how to use the weapons at your disposal. I think NF males and NT females have the potential to be extremely well balanced individuals (compared to the society ST and SF respective expectations).

 

[Randomnity]

News flash: No one has it easy! Life is not easy. And one persons dramas are not easier than another from their personal perspective because no one has it easy.

And no one may have it easy, but some may have it easier. To say that all people go through life with the same level of ease is ridiculous.

Absolutely on both counts.

Mind you, this is an irrelevant discussion. A white NF male born in an "old money" family will have it easier than a black ESTJ (or whatever your "optimum" type is) born to a single mom in the ghetto. Of course this is an exaggeration since most people are somewhat in the middle but my point is that the most important factors that make life "easier" are completely unrelated to type.

By the same token, if you're brought up to have social skills and common sense, this will go a long way towards making life easy, regardless of type.

If we're going to narrow in on isolated type, I would say that extroverts have it "easier" than introverts before talking about T and F. Or even judgers vs. perceivers.

And if you're comparing NT vs NF you might as well compare ST vs SF too. I don't think there's any relative difference in the "gender role" upset - or if anything, it's larger for Ss since we tend towards more practical, hands-on things that are more readily separated into gender-specific careers (mechanic, fire fighter, whatever). So it's arguably more of a discord with ST females than NTs.

Not to mention, even in an isolated, hypothetical situation, I don't think the two can be compared since you can't take away the difference in gender.

 

[Amethyst]

That's because you're a goblin.

Haha, good call.

 

[Salomé]

I think it's unwise to assume males have advantages in most everything, compared to females.... specially nowadays. Men have some distinct advantages in "western" society, but women have some equally distinct advantages. On the whole I don't think men are any better equipment to tackle life and I must say it kinda irks me to hear people perpetuating (I don't mean you per se Jock) that idea. Mostly because when it comes to social conduct and stuff...self-fulfilling prophecies are really common.

It's not an assumption. It's one of those inconvenient fact thingys.

Facts like:

• Women do two thirds of the world's work yet receive only 10% of the world's income and own 1% of the means of production
• Two thirds of the world's illiterate people are women
• 90% of people with eating disorders are women
• The ratio of women to men in political power is 1:5

Here are some from the "western" country in which I live:

• Women earn on average 23% less than men
• At least 100,000 women are raped each year and the conviction rate is only 6.5%
• 1 in 4 women will experience violence at the hands of a current or former partner.

Sorry it "irks" you. It irks me too.

 

[simulatedworld]

^ Where did you get the 2/3 of the work statistic? Is that measured in raw hours?

 

[Salomé]

^ Where did you get the 2/3 of the work statistic? Is that measured in raw hours?

It's widely cited.
Original source seems to be Barber Conable, president of the World Bank. It covers paid and unpaid work.

 

[simulatedworld]

Wow. That sucks.

 

[Moiety]

It's not an assumption. It's one of those inconvenient fact thingys.

Facts like:

• Women do two thirds of the world's work yet receive only 10% of the world's income and own 1% of the means of production
• Two thirds of the world's illiterate people are women
• 90% of people with eating disorders are women
• The ratio of women to men in political power is 1:5

Here are some from the "western" country in which I live:

• Women earn on average 23% less than men
• At least 100,000 women are raped each year and the conviction rate is only 6.5%
• 1 in 4 women will experience violence at the hands of a current or former partner.

Sorry it "irks" you. It irks me too.

By perpetuating, I meant indoctrinating young women to think a priori they stand no chance.

 

[Salomé]

By perpetuating, I meant indoctrinating young women to think a priori they stand no chance.

I'd rather young women knew what they were up against. Might shake them out of their apathy. If it doesn't, they deserve what they get.