Male NFs vs. Female NTs: Who has it harder?

[Billy]

I don't mean to shut down the difficulty of the NF male's situation, absolutely, there are challenges and hurdles there too.

It was my personal experience that roughly around 13 years old, all the girls were "just getting" something that I wasn't understanding, and it was starting to alienate me from the herd. When someone would have a teenage drama moment and stormed off in tears, all the other girls seemed to know the context and buildup behind it, and I was all ? Where did that come from? If it didn't involve me it wasn't a big deal, just a bit disorienting, but things sometimes did involve me, and it was stressful to have to navigate a world to which I was blind.


NT females have to first learn that there's information to perceive at all, and then after that comes the difficult work of paying attention to that data when you're not built to be oriented to it in the first place. Sort of like how bats use sonar, NT females are blind to what everyone else can see.

When you start to crash and bump into things and everyone else is going you enter the sink or swim moment of the NT female. It comes early and fast and you learn to use sonar or you are left in the dust and perceived as broken. Now, I love my sonar, and I think my other figurative senses are heightened because I wasn't a natural see-er . . . but it was hard-earned!

wouldn't that mostly be an NT trait though? I can see how it could work differently against an NT female as in she is expected to be more in tune with such things, but thats not really all that different from the situation an NF male is in... its just an inverse, the only difference I believe is that in terms of love and relationships and stuff, the NT female suffers whereas the NF male does extra well... however on the inverse again, being an NF male in a competitive job market is a major downer and very distressing because of inter office politics and stuff, I have noticed NT females thrive like a bastard in those situations.

I am still trying to get my head around the sink or swim thing though, you mean you have to figure out how to unnaturally act around all these touchy feely doofuses? and if you dont learn you are destined to be a cat lady?

I can see how that would be distressing.

On the same token, NF males have to learn to control thier major cling factor and constant barrage of insecurities. If I acted out on all my nuttyness and did what came natural I would call my girl 20 times a day pumping her for info, reassurance etc...

hmmm I dunno, the thing I see though is that if I stay out of the corporate worker world I tend to thrive amoungst people in my relationships, I can see where an outspoken NT female might not do quite as well, which is why I voted for NT females in this poll

 

[Salomé]

I don't mean to shut down the difficulty of the NF male's situation, absolutely, there are challenges and hurdles there too.

It was my personal experience that roughly around 13 years old, all the girls were "just getting" something that I wasn't understanding, and it was starting to alienate me from the herd. When someone would have a teenage drama moment and stormed off in tears, all the other girls seemed to know the context and buildup behind it, and I was all ? Where did that come from? If it didn't involve me it wasn't a big deal, just a bit disorienting, but things sometimes did involve me, and it was stressful to have to navigate a world to which I was blind.


NT females have to first learn that there's information to perceive at all, and then after that comes the difficult work of paying attention to that data when you're not built to be oriented to it in the first place. Sort of like how bats use sonar, NT females are blind to what everyone else can see.

When you start to crash and bump into things and everyone else is going you enter the sink or swim moment of the NT female. It comes early and fast and you learn to use sonar or you are left in the dust and perceived as broken. Now, I love my sonar, and I think my other figurative senses are heightened because I wasn't a natural see-er . . . but it was hard-earned!

I have no idea what you're talking about. I was never interested in girly things and never saw any reason to pretend to be. *shrug*

 

[the state i am in]

I don't mean to shut down the difficulty of the NF male's situation, absolutely, there are challenges and hurdles there too.

It was my personal experience that roughly around 13 years old, all the girls were "just getting" something that I wasn't understanding, and it was starting to alienate me from the herd. When someone would have a teenage drama moment and stormed off in tears, all the other girls seemed to know the context and buildup behind it, and I was all ? Where did that come from? If it didn't involve me it wasn't a big deal, just a bit disorienting, but things sometimes did involve me, and it was stressful to have to navigate a world to which I was blind.


NT females have to first learn that there's information to perceive at all, and then after that comes the difficult work of paying attention to that data when you're not built to be oriented to it in the first place. Sort of like how bats use sonar, NT females are blind to what everyone else can see.

When you start to crash and bump into things and everyone else is going you enter the sink or swim moment of the NT female. It comes early and fast and you learn to use sonar or you are left in the dust and perceived as broken. Now, I love my sonar, and I think my other figurative senses are heightened because I wasn't a natural see-er . . . but it was hard-earned!

i'm having trouble seeing your developmental model.

that the stakes for learning F at a young age, or you miss your developmental window to have any semblance of a relational self?

but learning T at a young age, there's really no window for when you need to get an at least functional semblance of causal expectation?

i think most people feel blind in some way or another at age 12. by the time i was in h.s. i was extremely brooding. i missed a huge developmental period by pretty much withdrawing from everyone and everything.

but i'm a 5w4, sx/sp, at 20 my w4 kicked in and i learned about the self, at 24 i realized some weak semblance of an so instinct, developed Fe, felt more like a complete human being, recognized the existence of Ti, etc.

is there something more than feeling like an outcast during middle school and high school that i'm missing? is it less damaging for nf males to completely withdraw than nt females? is there something far worse than withdrawal that only happens in these situations? what is it, and why does it happen to nt females more?

 

[Orangey]

I'm going to say NT females (or really all T females) simply by virtue of the fact of patriarchy.

 

[BlueScreen]

You might want to exclude the ENFs, because male ENFPs and ENFJs normally have it pretty good. They suffer near the least of the male types.

 

[Usehername]

I have no idea what you're talking about. I was never interested in girly things and never saw any reason to pretend to be. *shrug*

The particular incident I cited happened on the volleyball court when our team was in a tournament, split in two to maximize playing time. We had no subs and she stormed off the court in a drama queen meltdown.

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say this relates to girly things. This is just life for the non-alienated T female. (I think we reached general consensus on this topic on TypeC when it was still MBTIc a few years ago.)

 

[Usehername]

i'm having trouble seeing your developmental model.

that the stakes for learning F at a young age, or you miss your developmental window to have any semblance of a relational self?

but learning T at a young age, there's really no window for when you need to get an at least functional semblance of causal expectation?

i think most people feel blind in some way or another at age 12. by the time i was in h.s. i was extremely brooding. i missed a huge developmental period by pretty much withdrawing from everyone and everything.

but i'm a 5w4, sx/sp, at 20 my w4 kicked in and i learned about the self, at 24 i realized some weak semblance of an so instinct, developed Fe, felt more like a complete human being, recognized the existence of Ti, etc.

is there something more than feeling like an outcast during middle school and high school that i'm missing? is it less damaging for nf males to completely withdraw than nt females? is there something far worse than withdrawal that only happens in these situations? what is it, and why does it happen to nt females more?

It's not a well-formulated model, other than believing that girls have a sink or swim culture, and it comes in junior high. Being on the social outskirts for a female considerably narrows and restricts access to developmental opportunities.

 

[Rainne]

You might want to exclude the ENFs, because male ENFPs and ENFJs normally have it pretty good. They suffer near the least of the male types.

should really be a infx men vs. nt (excluding entp) woman thread

 

[Speed Gavroche]

Males NFs because thay are easily considered as effeminate and it's a shame in our society.

 

[Salomé]

The particular incident I cited happened on the volleyball court when our team was in a tournament, split in two to maximize playing time. We had no subs and she stormed off the court in a drama queen meltdown.

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say this relates to girly things. This is just life for the non-alienated T female. (I think we reached general consensus on this topic on TypeC when it was still MBTIc a few years ago.)

I still have no idea what you're talking about.
Why was it necessary for you to swim with the tide? /fly with the colony?
Also, I don't see how it's any easier for an INT male to fit in at school than it is for an INT female. If anything, it seems to be more difficult for them.

 

[Epiphany]

Males NFs because thay are easily considered as effeminate and it's a shame in our society.

Agreed. Particularly those of the Introverted and Perceiving variety because all four of those preferences reflect the opposite of masculine stereotypes. I can't speak for all male NF's though, and I certainly can't speak on behalf of female NT's. INFP personality traits, in men, not only presents problems attracting women (in general), but it makes career development difficult as well, which in turn has an adverse affect on romantic relationships.

 

[Kasper]

Females will always have it easy.
But it's all in perspective.

NT females are also less likely to emo-dump on people. So a lot of their problems might get kept to themselves.

While a male NF might make damn sure you know about all their trials and tribulations.

Looking at threads on the forum NF men and NT women appear to be just about as vocal as each other about the difficulties of fitting in with gender role expectations, they're just different kinds of threads and different desired outcomes. imo NT women tend to complain and ask for understanding, NF men tend to emo-dump.

nt types don't have to worry about creating a space for themselves to get paid. and the financial pressure of the future and the world of work and blah blah what are you gonna do weighs heavily on us.

nf males often times wander/flail around and don't figure out what they need to do for a long time.

Ever heard of NTPs?

I think female NT's do, because they want to be taken seriously and many men just wont ever give them that satisfaction, whereas as a male NF I can bond with anyone, STs, NFs, NTs SFs whatever, yeah it may be annoying to have to hide a lot of my emotional side because people will make fun of me for it, but I am adept at wearing differnt skins in public to protect my gooey core all the time anyway, plus I am not a sissy so people dont try to mess with me.

Good point that.

should really be a infx men vs. nt (excluding entp) woman thread

No. Dunno why people would think ENTP women wouldn't experience the same dramas, am curious why you would suggest that.

It's relative.

At the end of the day Amalie is indeed correct. You can't tell a NF male who has found being accepted for who he is very difficult that his struggle is any less than a NT woman who finds the same thing as each persons perspective trumps how another "may" experience things.

 

[Johnfloyd6675]

You might want to exclude the ENFs, because male ENFPs and ENFJs normally have it pretty good. They suffer near the least of the male types.

I was going to say; my godfather is ENFP and has absolutely supernatural powers over women. In his peripheral vision he saw his future wife digging through her purse for a lighter, and without breaking eye contact with the guy he was talking to, reached out and lit her cigarette. Fifteen minutes later, they're dancing in a cage at some nightclub.

ENFs, I think it's fair to say, have the most empathic sophistication, the best ability to read people, and that is not at all a bad thing.

But I imagine that male INFs have it rougher than female NTs. A woman with an engineering degree from a strong school finds a job faster than an Olympic sprinter/astronaut in an overly literal space race.

 

[Kasper]

But I imagine that male INFs have it rougher than female NTs. A woman with an engineering degree from a strong school finds a job faster than an Olympic sprinter/astronaut in an overly literal space race.

Work is only one aspect of life and I suspect that anyone with an engineering degree from a strong school finds a job faster than an Olympic sprinter/astronaut in an overly literal space race, unsure why that would have anything to do with type.

Plus life also consists of things such as relationships.

 

[Ulaes]

i'm going to say it's harder for NF males because i believe being disliked is harder on an NF than it is an NT. NTs are less prone to be affected how people care about them. they are also not prone to accomodating to suit others which means they won't suffer the same amount of opression an the NFs. NTs tend to think like this: if people don't like us, that's their problem.
i see NFs as more vulnerable in this case.

i also think that in societies current paradigm, it's more respectable to be a T than it is to be an F because we still believe the "masculine" position is the superior one. so they see T women as taking a step up but F men as taking a step back. ...generally...
but of course NT women get all kinds of labels. most of them flatter me, though.
you're a bitch = you're about to make me cry in public

which sure beats the heck out of being called a wuss or a sissy because at least being a bitch has advantages.

 

[Ulaes]

Plus life also consists of things such as relationships.

that's a interesting point. i imagine NT females have it harder in the relationship aspect because society has not been bred to forgive callous or domineering natures in women. That and some of our complementary NF male counterparts are scared of not being the masculine one in the relationship.
a lot of guys it seems, are out there only for a girl to giggle at their jokes, sit on their lap and fawn over them, like they're worth more than they really are.

was that a real point or was i just bitching?... whichever.

 

[Kasper]

i also think that in societies current paradigm, it's more respectable to be a T than it is to be an F because we still believe the "masculine" position is the superior one. so they see T women as taking a step up but F men as taking a step back. ...generally...

But it's more likely for a male to be a F than it is for a female to be a T according to stats, is it really that unacceptable?

T
Males 56.5%
Females 24.5%
Total 40.2%

F
Males: 43.5%
Females: 75.5%
Total: 59.8%

source

 

[Katsuni]

I'd say male NF's; female NT's are generally better situated to break down things that would damage us and usually just don't care nearly as much about whot others think of us. Still do to a degree, obviously (I worry about whot other people think WAY too much... but I don't normally let it get to me).

Male NF's, however, are more prone to reacting emotionally when attacked verbally or whotever, leaving them at a bit of a disadvantage on the playing field, especially since there's not really anywheres they can go for consolation, as most people will just further the problem rather than help with it.

I'd say we both definitely have our issues to deal with, but most NT's are able to tolerate the baseless accusations of stupid people. NF's are just less likely to be armoured in a way that will protect them from such as well.

Though once someone DOES get past that barrier, NF's are better suited to healing themselves, NT's don't know how to fix an emotional wound on themselves nearly as easily.

Suppose it's hard to say XD

 

[garbage]

But it's more likely for a male to be a F than it is for a female to be a T according to stats, is it really that unacceptable?

Even so, we are still a minority. A minority that is spit on, cast aside, and completely abandoned by this world.

The fact is, male Fs are second-class citizens in this world. And because we are feelers, we feel that sense of rejection so, so deeply. We internalize it. It becomes a part of us.

 

[Kasper]

Even so, we are still a minority. A minority that is spit on, cast aside, and completely abandoned by this world.

The fact is, male Fs are second-class citizens in this world. And because we are feelers, we feel that sense of rejection so, so deeply. We internalize it. It becomes a part of us.

43.5% of men are abandoned by the world?

The stats have males thinkers at 56.5% and male feelers at 43.5%, doesn't seem like much of a minority, especially when you compare it to female thinkers/feelers that are closer to 75/25.

If the stats say that the population of males are that evenly split what exactly what is it that is unacceptable that 45% of men might feel like "second-class citizens"? And if they are 45% of the population why are expectations that are unnatural pushed onto feeler males by their peers? Surely 45% wouldn't bend to the expectations of 55%.

If this really is a matter of being such a minority then what feeler men are included? Are SFJ men excluded because Si is notoriously associated with being traditional, are SFP men excluded as well, if they aren't then ya'll aren't really a minority, if they are then is the issue more about iNtuition being close to 75/25 S/N and iNtuitives not being able to fit societies expectations?