Thread: S and N... work in progress on a working definition

1. Originally Posted by whatever
very true... and considering that there's no clear S or N, just Se or Ne, that muddies things up even further

It shouldn't be possible for a person to have NO S whatsoever or NO N whatsoever, because even in the basic order of processes in the personality we have both S and N represented in every type

since you're a Ne person nebby, you should also have Si in there as your tertiary
My point was that S and N are not dichotomously opossed, since every person has senses as a baseline; it seems to me, based on that analysis, that intuitive ability is in addition to sensing. I guess I see that as a shortcoming of the theory. It makes my Fi really, really despondent.

Also, I have no idea what Si is. I've heard it described as 'nostalgia' or 'memory', but there again, everyone has that ability. Can you explain it?

2. Did the test have only 2 options for each question or more than 2?

3. I'll chime in with my input.

First, N vs S:

Intuition is about patterns and relationships (between patterns and entities).

Intuition is a model that we have in our heads. It doesn't necessarily match reality, though it is likely. The model fluctuates, as we realize how close to or far from reality we are. Intuition is often largely based on reality, but it resides in our minds.

Sensing is, for lack of a better word, being more "present" and grounded in reality. Of course there is information in our heads, but Sensors generally don't "add to it" in the way intuitives do.

Now for the specifics:

Se is, in my opinion, the "very present" perceiving function. Real time information is perceived immediately that one may react promptly. Some would argue that this is the "most used" function regardless of type, simply by definition, even if it isn't preferred. I personally believe that in a Jungian sense, we're more concerned with whether Se is preferred, not whether it is simply "used." The preference for Se means "living in the now" is important to oneself.

Si is, loosely speaking, how much one relies upon one's memory. It does not imply that one has a good memory, though there may be some correlation. I've noted Si users to misremember things and be utterly certain of that incorrect memory. The preference for Si means that one regards one's memories as being reliable, correct and a proper choice for guidance with respect to making decisions. Contrary to popular opinion, Si users are not averse to new ideas, but it takes time, just the same as it takes time for Fi to get used to a new feeling, or Ti to accept new logic that one didn't derive oneself, or Ni to fully understand a new pattern. Also, when I speak of N being about patterns and S as being about specific entities, S can recognize patterns and use them, but it doesn't "think in patterns" so to speak. For Si, a pattern is a feature, an entity, of reality. It doesn't "switch out patterns" the way Ni does.

Ne is remarkably similar to Se, in that it relies on external, real time data. However, upon perceiving something in real time, the mind then jumps in and starts relating what is seen with everything else in one's mind. So one can express a fascination with what one is sensing, but the real fascination is with the mental stimulation that is provided.

Ni, my dominant function, is more like Si, and more like a memory. It is not, however, a memory of specific entities or specific patterns, but a memory of kinds of things. So upon observing something or judging something (with Se or Fe or Te), Ni starts correlating the observed/judged thing with memorized patterns. This is where the spooky insights that Ni provides come from. Pattern matching looks things up in ways that most people don't "see", and thus the patterns point out things in a really obvious way to the Ni user that are not obvious to others.

4. Originally Posted by whatever
To give a working example of these functions, let’s send Se, Ne, Si and Ni out together on an archeological expedition to dig up 3 toed hippopotamuses out of a corn field in Iowa- Se is happily pulling out the bones and laying them out into how they most likely fit together while the hippopotamus was still alive, using joints, cues on how things fit and what the function of the bone was as cues. Ne is busy trying to decide whether the hippopotamus was grey, brown, green or furry… it’s looking at the bone structure that Se is building and mentally building an image of the hippopotamus. Si is looking for signs as to what killed the hippopotamuses in a database of ancient historical meteorological and geological trends… maybe comparing these trends to things that had caused other mass deaths of creatures could give an insight as to why all of the hippopotamuses here died. Ni knows that whatever killed the hippopotamuses can also kill large numbers of humans; Ni also knows that it was invited along because it’s spouse tends to pack lunch for everyone that Ni hangs out with.

We can begin to answer a lot of questions and stereotypes based on type when we know more about these functions… and the answers don’t tend to be that Sensors really ARE dumber, Js are critical because they’re not nice people, and all intuitives are paranoid… I have more, but it’s sunny and lovely out and I’m tired of typing for the moment!
ok, lets bring some reality into this.

Se is off digging a huge hole, tossing stones up and hitting it with a bone. Se is extremely playful. Look at Ne playfulness in ENFP and Se is the physical version. Si is working on learning and filling up its information store, scanning for more information telling the STPs that an archeological expedition is not the time to play.

edit: ok, I am just adding stereotypes, but its strictly dependent on the activity.

Se is me standing in line at Starbucks internally laughing, not in a judgemental way, but in an amused way, at the lady that just paid for her coffee hold a flirtatious attitude waiting for the guy behind the counter to turn back around. Making ever so slight hesitations everytime she "thinks" he is gonna turn around and then go overboard with full body movements to over exagerate her flirtatiousness. Then go back to normal as she takes a couple steps away. People are crazy and crazy is funny, amusing, and entertaining.

5. Originally Posted by nebbykoo
Also, I have no idea what Si is. I've heard it described as 'nostalgia' or 'memory', but there again, everyone has that ability. Can you explain it?
I hit that on the first page and uumlau hit on that here

and to Poki... I was trying to make all of the functions appear as useful as possible in a way... you know, like the ideal work environment versions of them

I do enjoy putting bones together, though I'd most likely be holding a femur and sneaking up behind someone else to see if they'd notice that I was in position to club them with the femur like a cave person

6. Originally Posted by whatever
Ni's always more of a weird spider web to me anyways
I only notice Ni if I get Reeeeeaaaal emo and introverted and then I get all symbolic and want to write in weird emo-y metaphors. (It's very funny as the few times I have posted these here the ENTPs will make comments-they can sense the weird Ni, like I can usually sense it in an INTJ). But once not emo-withdrawn anymore, the Ni goes away and I am back to emo-spastic Ne. But I dont think this Ni is ever anywhere near the strength/depth of an Ni dom in anyway.

Originally Posted by nebbykoo
My point was that S and N are not dichotomously opossed, since every person has senses as a baseline; it seems to me, based on that analysis, that intuitive ability is in addition to sensing. I guess I see that as a shortcoming of the theory. It makes my Fi really, really despondent.

Also, I have no idea what Si is. I've heard it described as 'nostalgia' or 'memory', but there again, everyone has that ability. Can you explain it?
For me: NeFiTeSi

NeSi work with a judging function. So Ne comes up with 100 amazing possibilities, then checks into the Si library from the past to pick the best possibility. It kinda zig-zags back and forth-Ne-Si-Ne-Si...

I can do this with Ne-Te-Si really well to find the best logically path. It is just common sense. However Ne-Fi-Si is much weaker as I dont have many Fi-Si "books" in the Si library.

For an Ne dom-assuming the typical MBTI order (which is a significant and questionable assumption) you'd assume we'd grow in more Si as we age. So the above applies to me alone-who knows how other people work-only them!

(Oh, hehe, sorry whatever, I didnt mean to ramble on your thread. I'm outta here!!! great thread btw!!!)

7. no need to applogize for you post... I WANT different perspectives on this here!

I'm Se/Ni, so getting a Ne/Si view on things is great!

8. Great description of Ni, whatever . Most of the Ni descriptions I've come across from mbti sources are loaded with complicated languagery that always pisses me off and places what they are trying to define about Ni behind a bunch of clouds.

9. thanks! I actually had a horrible time because there were no really clear descriptions to work from even

10. Originally Posted by nebbykoo
Also, I have no idea what Si is. I've heard it described as 'nostalgia' or 'memory', but there again, everyone has that ability. Can you explain it?
In SJs Si usually manifests itself as strong attention to detail, which includes details in the external environment as well as a surprisingly detailed memory. One of the best descriptions I've seen on-line is the idea that Si thinks a chair SHOULD have four legs, and sometimes gets stuck on the way things should be rather than the way they are...which seems kind of like NF idealism, but it has much more to do with past and tradition and the way things once were than some kind of idealistic vision. SJs are the guardians of the structure of society because of this attention to detail and respect for tradition and history. This can make Si dom/aux stubborn and resistant to new ideas. Because of the love of structure, they generally also are preoccupied with safety and/or health.

In NFPs I think it does have a lot more to do with nostalgia and memory, since it isn't our primary or auxillary function. I think Si is what "grounds" NFPs ... our past is what grounds us, rather than the present moment (Se).
I personally LOVE history and have a good memory...but of course, with any tertiary or inferior function, you aren't going to have the gifts of a dom/aux, which is probably why I'm bad with details and even get annoyed with people who get caught up in details or tradition. I respect tradition though. It's weird.

I don't know exactly how it manifests itself in NTPs, though.

I have also read that in the inferior position, Si can cause anxiety (fear of the unknown, over-concern for safety) and preoccupation with health or the body to the point of hypochondria in a depressed or otherwise "unhealthy" ENxP.

I think the STJ shadow of NFPs may also be what lies beneath our secret need to be "right" with our Fi ethical value systems in arguments.

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