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Pairing up types.

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
Okay so perhaps I'm nagging about this now but as different thinking occurs I post different things....

Right, an INTP who is forced to sort something out will engage parts of their shadow. It seems to me that in such a situation an INTPs thinking will closely match that of an ENTJ (if they can handle the situation).

An ENTP being definitive is very similar to an INTJ and an INTJ who is trying to be spontaneous with people is more ENTP.

I'm wondering what people think about such crude pairings.

My theory fits this model but I'm not sure if anyone else can see it or if there's other theories which are similar.
 

bai_lin83

New member
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
30
Hmm.. from my experience..yes. Especially, with the ENTP-INTJ pairing. I think I tend to slide back and forth. <if there's such a thing ;)>

I haven't studied MBTI that much but I think the pairings you made may be possible. I've been getting a lot of ENTJ in my results these days tho..

I'm interested in your theory. Let's see if I ever slip into INTP mode...
 

Splittet

Wannabe genius
Joined
Jun 12, 2007
Messages
632
MBTI Type
INTJ
There is kind of a identical theory, yes. It says the best fit type, is the type with opposite direction on it's dominant function. If you are Ni dominant (INTJ and INFJ), your best fit type is Ne dominant (ENTP and ENFP), if you are Fe dominant (ENFJ and ESFJ), your best fit type is Fi dominant (INFP and ISFP) and so on...
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
Hmm.. from my experience..yes. Especially, with the ENTP-INTJ pairing. I think I tend to slide back and forth. <if there's such a thing ;)>

I haven't studied MBTI that much but I think the pairings you made may be possible. I've been getting a lot of ENTJ in my results these days tho..

I'm interested in your theory. Let's see if I ever slip into INTP mode...
If you do then may I suggest a name change? How's about soap ;)
There is kind of a identical theory, yes. It says the best fit type, is the type with opposite direction on it's dominant function. If you are Ni dominant (INTJ and INFJ), your best fit type is Ne dominant (ENTP and ENFP), if you are Fe dominant (ENFJ and ESFJ), your best fit type is Fi dominant (INFP and ISFP) and so on...
But none regarding the pairing within a person? Perhaps it has to do with admiring things from the other type I'm not sure.

The whole thing started off with a conversation about development for INTPs, me specifically. Now it came up in that conversation that I, and other INTPs, would benefit from looking at the ENTJ thought processes more. After that discussion I was talking to Wildcat and we were going through function order (again) and I noted the pattern of INTP to ENTJ to ESFJ. Whaddya know it fits.

Then of course came the debacle of typing my ENTP friend, he acts quite INTJ. Then there's the INTJ I know who's very much the smartass as long as he's not tired. Studying the model I found it was there again. Now I'm just trying to expand on this and see if it works in a more universal environment.
 

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
11,429
MBTI Type
eNFJ
Enneagram
4w3
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I've been mistaken by others for an ENTJ, INFJ, INTJ and (by other Sensers) ESTP. Very schizophrenic, but I can't explain it any better.

This just reinforces the feeling that my ENFJ isn't really a personality and is more like a catch-all drawer for weird free-ranging traits. Some of them don't even seem to go together!

So you go into ENTJ mode do you? Just under pressure?
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Okay so perhaps I'm nagging about this now but as different thinking occurs I post different things....

Right, an INTP who is forced to sort something out will engage parts of their shadow. It seems to me that in such a situation an INTPs thinking will closely match that of an ENTJ (if they can handle the situation).

An ENTP being definitive is very similar to an INTJ and an INTJ who is trying to be spontaneous with people is more ENTP.

I'm wondering what people think about such crude pairings.

My theory fits this model but I'm not sure if anyone else can see it or if there's other theories which are similar.

I see what you're saying... that the opposite orientation of the dominant should theoretically be easy to engage. Ne seems to be relatively usable for me in some situations, but still not as easy as Ni. The problem is that I know many INTP's who can't really use Te well at all, yet some of them claim they can use Ni. (I have no way to test any of this, because they can always take advantage of an ambiguity in description, or a tendency in a test, to make what they're saying seem valid. There's nothing I can use to dispel it, even if I don't really agree with it.) Also, I've seen INTP's who seem to act more like ENTP's when they interact with others, and even a few who behave like really weird, clingy, and issue-circumventing xSFJ's (this can seem really sad, sweet, or irritating depending on my mood.)

What makes you say ENTJ rather than ENTP, INTJ, or even xSFJ? Just curious.
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
2,790
MBTI Type
OMNi
There is kind of a identical theory, yes. It says the best fit type, is the type with opposite direction on it's dominant function. If you are Ni dominant (INTJ and INFJ), your best fit type is Ne dominant (ENTP and ENFP), if you are Fe dominant (ENFJ and ESFJ), your best fit type is Fi dominant (INFP and ISFP) and so on...

Gawd no! After dating an INTJ I'm at about my ends with the whole type. Fe, Ti vs. Te, Fi is a recipe for disaster. I don't know how Jen does it. It was like pairing a spiritualist with a scientist. You both may be using the same dominant function, but the way you use it is completely opposite of each other. And that whole "opposites attract" thing is great in the beginning, but it falls apart once you realize how differently you interpret the world. :doh:
 

Usehername

On a mission
Joined
May 30, 2007
Messages
3,794
When I'm enjoying myself (and not having some quiet discussion) with friends, the type I most resemble is ENTP.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
I've been mistaken by others for an ENTJ, INFJ, INTJ and (by other Sensers) ESTP. Very schizophrenic, but I can't explain it any better.
Hmm schizophrenic type. Oooo you could have a new one there ;)

Personally I think you'd be difficult to type. Rampant intelligence unfocused. Kinda like my sister. I'm not sure how it works but I think with ENFJs they pick up so much from delving around in other's heads and problems that they possibly pick up a little of everything.

Perhaps by understanding others you are able to emulate or sythesise some of those facets yourself?
This just reinforces the feeling that my ENFJ isn't really a personality and is more like a catch-all drawer for weird free-ranging traits. Some of them don't even seem to go together!
Nah. You're just a wierd free ranging ENFJ :tongue10:
:)
So you go into ENTJ mode do you? Just under pressure?
Not pressure so much just when I feel (look I said feel !!!) that stuff needs sorting I engage a more commanding role and take over. At those points I'm kinda manifesting ENTJ. I produce plans which solve all the problems and work out in an orderly manner A-Z through all opposition.

I'm not sure it's fully ENTJ but it matches the description of the planning and problem solving part of ENTJ just with an INTP advisor hanging over their shoulders.
I see what you're saying... that the opposite orientation of the dominant should theoretically be easy to engage. Ne seems to be relatively usable for me in some situations, but still not as easy as Ni. The problem is that I know many INTP's who can't really use Te well at all, yet some of them claim they can use Ni. (I have no way to test any of this, because they can always take advantage of an ambiguity in description, or a tendency in a test, to make what they're saying seem valid. There's nothing I can use to dispel it, even if I don't really agree with it.) Also, I've seen INTP's who seem to act more like ENTP's when they interact with others, and even a few who behave like really weird, clingy, and issue-circumventing xSFJ's (this can seem really sad, sweet, or irritating depending on my mood.)
Would that be the ESFJ shadow? See I've recently been noticing more and more the latent F in many INTPs actions. Yes the whole claim of objective logic is there but the F is hidden beneath unnoticed by the person doing it.

Oh and like any type pointing out the shadow is never a good thing :whistling:
What makes you say ENTJ rather than ENTP, INTJ, or even xSFJ? Just curious.
Well I was aware of the ability to plan and such but when discussing the MBTI with my fatehr he was describing the whole healthy ENTJ mindset. It matched what I observed of what I was doing and as the discussion turned to this he said himself that it's good progression for INTPs to learn things from ENTJs (him being an ENTJ may have something to do with that though ;) ). When I was analysing the functions with Wildcat the pattern was kinda obvious.

As for 'why not another type' well the only other with similar styling is the INTJ but I disagree with my friends style of problem solving (the problem in isolation to the human factor) and so thus far I've plumped for ENTJ. That was one point of the thread. It'd be nice to find out others experiences to see if they think the pattern works or if not why not.
When I'm enjoying myself (and not having some quiet discussion) with friends, the type I most resemble is ENTP.
Now if I remember rightly you are an INTJ are you not?
(memory being one of those things I've not found any way to get better at yet :) )
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,741
MBTI Type
INfj
It's very possible for an introvert who became more focus on the external world to resemble an E... at least temporary. Using the auxillary function more would make an INTP seem more like an ENTP. Although in my case I tend to prefer Ne over Fe when forcing myself to notice my surroundings. I've never been that strong of a J though, so perhaps your pattern can still hold true. At least for people who aren't borderline...
 

red13

New member
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
40
MBTI Type
INTJ
Here's my understanding from my study of the MBTI and from my own personal experience.

As an Introvert I'm forced to work as an E when engaging with other people. In group situations I'm sure that I behave as an ENTP and come across as quite likeable and gregarious. However when left to my own ends I will default to INTJ which is a lot less pleasant for third parties.

I managed to develop my Extrovert personality, mainly in a work environment, very well. However Extroverts do not have the same pressure or necessity to develop their introvert side.

I would expect most Introverts to have a well developed Extrovert side but that many extroverts do not develop their introvert side quite so well and may appear shallow.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
It's very possible for an introvert who became more focus on the external world to resemble an E... at least temporary. Using the auxillary function more would make an INTP seem more like an ENTP. Although in my case I tend to prefer Ne over Fe when forcing myself to notice my surroundings. I've never been that strong of a J though, so perhaps your pattern can still hold true. At least for people who aren't borderline...
Not sure about boarderline but in regard to the INTP - ENTP thing, would you not expect an INTP to move to ENTJ not only to be more extroverted but to get whatever it is organised and sorted to so that people may continue without further incident, an ENTJ trait, so that they may return to their introversion?
Here's my understanding from my study of the MBTI and from my own personal experience.

As an Introvert I'm forced to work as an E when engaging with other people. In group situations I'm sure that I behave as an ENTP and come across as quite likeable and gregarious. However when left to my own ends I will default to INTJ which is a lot less pleasant for third parties.

I managed to develop my Extrovert personality, mainly in a work environment, very well. However Extroverts do not have the same pressure or necessity to develop their introvert side.

I would expect most Introverts to have a well developed Extrovert side but that many extroverts do not develop their introvert side quite so well and may appear shallow.

Would you say that were you to develop your ENTP side so that it's strength begins to rival your INTJ side?

I realise that in general it is beneficial to increase the strength of all facets of a personality but in terms of this one specific path do you see it as more beneficial than other paths?
 

red13

New member
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
40
MBTI Type
INTJ
Would you say that were you to develop your ENTP side so that it's strength begins to rival your INTJ side?

I realise that in general it is beneficial to increase the strength of all facets of a personality but in terms of this one specific path do you see it as more beneficial than other paths?

My ENTP side was very well developed when I came across the MBTI, eight years ago. In order to further my professional career I developed my interpersonal skills, empathy etc. When I tested as an INTJ I was convinced it was wrong and that I was really ENTP. At that time a large part of my work was teaching very technical skills to groups of professionals (mostly INxx), this required me to work in an extrovert mode most of the time. People never believed me when I told them that I was really very anti-social!

As I've got older, and I no longer lecture either, I've reverted more to INTJ although I suspect most people that I deal with would not guess that I'm an INTJ through my professional behaviour.

I think a danger of typing ,such as the MBTI, is that you may more happily fall into what's comfortable i.e. typical INTJ. Personally I think it's very important for an INTJ to work on their outgoing/external side. An ENTP is probably a lot friendlier than an INTJ, so it's a good side to show in public.

I'm not too bothered about developing my sensing side, although my ISTJ wife thinks I should.
 

GZA

Resident Snot-Nose
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
1,771
MBTI Type
infp
I personally don't think that talking to people makes you switch to "E". I don't see how that works at all, really... when I talk to people I'm still very much inward focused and its almost like translating. I can still talk and communicate very well and I see that a lot of people enjoy talking to me.

I know that everyone has the potential to use any function but that some are very difficult and energy consuming to use, and are not prefered functions, but I don't see how that makes you switch from, in my case, INFP to ENFP. I'm still INFP and I'm still acting like one, I'm just communicating with other people. The individual functions themselves only go so far, because really it seems that its the combination of the functions that defines the personalities rather than the specific functions. I don't really beleive you can naturally slip into another whole personality... even if you may seem to be doing so. For example, even if I was to use, say, sensing and thinking simaultaniously, I'd still be an INFP while doing that because I'd merely be focusing on those functions, but I'd still be and INFP and I'd still being thinking how thought comes naturally to me as an INFP.
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,741
MBTI Type
INfj
Not sure about boarderline but in regard to the INTP - ENTP thing, would you not expect an INTP to move to ENTJ not only to be more extroverted but to get whatever it is organised and sorted to so that people may continue without further incident, an ENTJ trait, so that they may return to their introversion?
That part is what I'm puzzling over...

Why is it INTP -> ENTJ and INTJ -> ENTP

It works in my case going from INFJ -> ENXP but why?

If it's just I to E... All you need to do is switch your dominant and auxillary functions. But if it is IJ -> EP and IP -> EJ You're involving shadows... I would have thought it'll be easier to use auxillary more in order to extrovert.
 

hotmale

New member
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
232
MBTI Type
ESTJ
I've been mistaken by others for an ENTJ, INFJ, INTJ and (by other Sensers) ESTP. Very schizophrenic, but I can't explain it any better.

This just reinforces the feeling that my ENFJ isn't really a personality and is more like a catch-all drawer for weird free-ranging traits. Some of them don't even seem to go together!


:D My ENTJ sister often gets mistaken for being ENFJ. I think because she learned coping skills from our ENFP mother.

According to my sister she is always most immediately attracted to INTP/ENTP males and most of her female friends are INTJs/INFJs/ENTJs. I guess it's some brain chemistry that she immediately clicks with.

I think it's best to analyze personality on a spectrum- rather than being finite. Most people who have developed their full range tend to vacillate between I/E F/T J/P imho anyway.
 

Dansker

New member
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
341
MBTI Type
INTP
Right, an INTP who is forced to sort something out will engage parts of their shadow. It seems to me that in such a situation an INTPs thinking will closely match that of an ENTJ (if they can handle the situation).
Interesting.

I am an INTP, however I imagine there are times when I appear quite ENTJ. At work I am expected to think on my feet, provide direction to and guide resources, make quick decisions, facilitate workshops with a moments notice to cost and size new initiatives that the company may want to undertake, have answers ready regarding everything and anything that I may be asked, pull rabbits out of a hat and make something out of nothing on a daily basis, all while appearing totally in control and confident.

My ability to to most of this is not my preferred way to operate, but I can do it and feel comfortable given that I feel very competent in my role.

Sometimes if it feels exhilarating, but most times it feels exhausting. I can't wait to get home, relax and recharge.

Ah, the life of a consultant. :happy0065:
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
People never believed me when I told them that I was really very anti-social!
I'm not too bothered about developing my sensing side, although my ISTJ wife thinks I should.
:D These two sentences when put back to back definitely make you an INTJ :D
(Sorry that just struck me as funny)
I think a danger of typing ,such as the MBTI, is that you may more happily fall into what's comfortable i.e. typical INTJ.
Exactly which is why I think that more attention needs to be paid to paths of development.
Personally I think it's very important for an INTJ to work on their outgoing/external side. An ENTP is probably a lot friendlier than an INTJ, so it's a good side to show in public.
:yes: Strangely though you'd have to have been an ENTP to notice that though. Mind you from my point of view there's little funnier than sitting and listening to my INTJ friend give his critique on the world as it passes by. I'm sorry but that much bile put into such succinct and cutting sarcasm is just plain funny :D
I personally don't think that talking to people makes you switch to "E". I don't see how that works at all, really... when I talk to people I'm still very much inward focused and its almost like translating. I can still talk and communicate very well and I see that a lot of people enjoy talking to me.
Talking to people doesn't particularly do it but giving energy, broadcasting, does. Anyone can talk but to extrovert is to deliberately offer a connection, to extend toward the person some kind of interaction as opposed to waiting for others to do so and being all input and no output.
I know that everyone has the potential to use any function but that some are very difficult and energy consuming to use, and are not prefered functions, but I don't see how that makes you switch from, in my case, INFP to ENFP. I'm still INFP and I'm still acting like one, I'm just communicating with other people. The individual functions themselves only go so far, because really it seems that its the combination of the functions that defines the personalities rather than the specific functions. I don't really beleive you can naturally slip into another whole personality... even if you may seem to be doing so. For example, even if I was to use, say, sensing and thinking simaultaniously, I'd still be an INFP while doing that because I'd merely be focusing on those functions, but I'd still be and INFP and I'd still being thinking how thought comes naturally to me as an INFP.
That much is true. No matter what I am still an INTP. Even when acting in an ENTJ manner I still am an INTP and can be seen to be an INTP but were you to be challenged to decide which was an INTP manifesting ENTJ and which was an ENTJ manifesting INTP you may be hard pressed to find the answer. It's more about moving yourself to the border than crossing over completely (the border between E and I for example).
That part is what I'm puzzling over...

Why is it INTP -> ENTJ and INTJ -> ENTP

It works in my case going from INFJ -> ENXP but why?

If it's just I to E... All you need to do is switch your dominant and auxillary functions. But if it is IJ -> EP and IP -> EJ You're involving shadows... I would have thought it'll be easier to use auxillary more in order to extrovert.
Good question. The honest answer is I don't know. All I know is that I'm rarely ENTP. Sure I can extrovert but I'm still doing INTP when I'm doing it. I only slip into ENTJ when organising and ESFJ is still a lowly position in the list of mind sets which I utilise. It tends to form more my motivation than my actualisation.

Anyhow, in function terms an IP is the same as an EJ. If I were to flip from IP to EP then not only would I be changing the functions to extroverted but I would also be altering what order they were prioritised in.
yes. INTJ.
:D Reputation points for you. Very INTJ :D
:D My ENTJ sister often gets mistaken for being ENFJ. I think because she learned coping skills from our ENFP mother.
ENTJ and ENFJ share a lot in common.

I think that it depends mostly on peoples preconceptions about the type and a general ignorance to positive and negative influences. A negative ENFJ can seem to be an ENTJ and vice versa. It's a common mistake in typing.
According to my sister she is always most immediately attracted to INTP/ENTP males and most of her female friends are INTJs/INFJs/ENTJs. I guess it's some brain chemistry that she immediately clicks with.
Now that's odd. My father is an ENTJ and he seems to dislike ENTPs universally (he's not prone to being so prejudiced normally) and he found me quite tiring when I was younger though one of his main advisors is an INTP. Not that he ever thinks to ask me the great gallute!
I think it's best to analyze personality on a spectrum- rather than being finite. Most people who have developed their full range tend to vacillate between I/E F/T J/P imho anyway.
The facets of a person are always shades of grey but types are always absolutes. If not then how can you move forward?

If what you see cannot be called an orange but has to be described as being most like the common conception of fruit and is kind of a warm yellow in colour with dimpled skin ....etc then firstly it'd take you ages and secondly nothing would ever be achieved because your bound to find the one person who goes "huh?".

I agree that no one is 100% one thing and 0% another. That's artificial but when it comes to typing it's best to think as if it is and then complicate things when necessary rather than to start from that point.
Interesting.

I am an INTP, however I imagine there are times when I appear quite ENTJ. At work I am expected to think on my feet, provide direction to and guide resources, make quick decisions, facilitate workshops with a moments notice to cost and size new initiatives that the company may want to undertake, have answers ready regarding everything and anything that I may be asked, pull rabbits out of a hat and make something out of nothing on a daily basis, all while appearing totally in control and confident.

My ability to to most of this is not my preferred way to operate, but I can do it and feel comfortable given that I feel very competent in my role.

Sometimes if it feels exhilarating, but most times it feels exhausting. I can't wait to get home, relax and recharge.

Ah, the life of a consultant. :happy0065:
Ooo the model works for you too???

I concur that it's tiring. One thing though, do you find that you have a need to engage the ole ENTJ mind though? I find that I almost have to switch between (though that could be more environmental now I think about it :whistling: )
 

Tigerlily

unscannable
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
5,942
MBTI Type
TIGR
Enneagram
3w4
What type is Christian Bale? Or at least the character he is portraying in Xanders avy? What movie is that anyway?

I know ENTP's are said to be matched well with INFJ's but I just can't see myself married to one.
 
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