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your mbti type does not change!

G

Ginkgo

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The definition of happiness is variable and/or elusive. For any corporation to claim "happier" people have certain percentages of x, y, and z from their model—such as the Five Factor Model— is ludicrous.

I've already agreed to this.

Let's say I hand out a questionnaire to this entire forum and ask them how happy they are on a scale of one to ten. If every individual answers honestly, they will go off of their own definition (or God forbid, how they actually feel) and rate accordingly. The outcome of the questionnaire will still be representative of that population. All of those definitions of happiness lead to the end result. I, as the test maker, did not tamper with the definition.

Any test maker with half a brain would design their test that way. It's not like they would stamp some universal formula for happiness on whatever they're talking about.
 

Jaguar

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If person A's definition of happiness is raping gerbils, and person B's definition of happiness is baking cookies, I have no interest in hearing any claims pertaining to "happier" people.

:beathorse:
 
G

Ginkgo

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If person A's definition of happiness is raping gerbils, and person B's definition of happiness is baking cookies, I have no interest in hearing any claims pertaining to "happier" people.

:beathorse:

Fear not. No one's trying to plant happiness microchips in your brain!
 

INTP

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My name is Adam Brown. The Netherlands. 26 years old. Currently finishing my master degree in Pscyhology. Fascinated by human potential.

Change is pretty easy, even changing deeply rooted patterns is doable and it can be done in a reasonable amount of time. Jung theory's presumes a basis that cognitive process preference is innate. Don't crystallize it, he might have changed his opinion with the in genius tools that are available today.

Listen carefully, for what follows is a sacred truth: Change occurs rapidly when past forms are discarded. Instead of trying to patch up and repair the rotting church of your assigned identity, simply… leave. Leave the safe confines; ignore the warnings of the preacher that is your superego; go and explore. Your soul is beautiful and diverse. Have you taken the time to appreciate its full beauty?

If we would look at change 'tools', we find a whole range of tools that allow one to change and to grow. (I am taking core change) Below some interesting onces I used( some of these tools are to be used in combination)

- Deep Trance Identification ( Hypnosis )

- Time line therapy

- General manipulation of ‘Consciousness’

- Neo-Reichian psychotherapy ( etc.. )

- Controlled psychedelic and dissociative drug use

Experiments on myself:

- General manipulation of ‘Consciousness’ . I developed my intuition (Auxiliary) and 'anchored' myself into that, this instead of my previous sensing side. I am still Dominant extroverted thinking. Tests have shown that my Intuitive side is currently better developed then my sensing side.


Experiments on a friend:

- Tested as ISFP ( tested 2x and one time through an MBTI® Master Practitioner )

- Used the first 4 tools above. Changed from ISFP to ENTJ in 2 years. My friend is running his own company at the moment with 60 +/- employees.

- Currently tested ENTJ ( tested 2x and one time through an MBTI® Master Practitioner)

tests only measure the outcome of personality, the outcome changes, but the core of personality((function order)/personality as described by jung) grows. it takes new directions, due to adaptation to new situations and past experiences, people learn new ways of acting out(persona changes) in situations, adaptation styles change.
you are looking at the ego(jungian term, not freudian) growth there, but ego isnt the same as personality(you should know that being psychology student too), this also fools MBTI tests, like persona, but neither are the personality type.

about that ISFP friend of yours turning to ENTJ, is just ISFP developing his Ni(tert) Te(inferior) and learning to adapt to external world in the same way as extravert does. its also typical to overestimate the new aspects of ego on self report tests, so as he has developed this shadow side(ENTJ) of his, he will answer the test in more ENTJ fashion than what he actually might be. thats because this new side of him is so different from how he has been used of seeing the self, its sort of overcompensation of new traits because they require more conscious efforts compared to rooted ISFP ways, because those traits go against the old ego self. this is growing, not changing, the changes are only superficial, because they are growth of ego(assimilating new traits to conscious self) and changes adaptations. what is in the conscious self(ego) is only a small part of whole self.

for example if you take INTP who havent developed his Si and Fe, only so little of these functions are in the ego that they mainly work in the unconscious and the INTP doesent even see that those traits are part of him. as he develops those functions, they become larger part of ego, thus bringing the function to awareness and available for ego to use. now as the INTP develops his Si and Fe the ego grows. if the would develop Ne for example, so much that it seems that the person has turned into ENTP, its just that he has learned to adapt to external world using his Ne very well. but what does not change is the function order, aux function supports dominant by giving it ideas etc. this is something that wont change, for INTP its the Ne supporting Ti, even tho Ne would have been developed so much that it looks to be more there than Ti when seen from the outside. for ENTP its the Ti that is supporting Ne.
 

skylights

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Even people who are Limbic can be happy, in fact some might even claim to feel happiness "more intensely" when they experience or something than Calms. I've also met some really angry, stressed-out Organized people.

What makes one person happy might make another miserable. Plus, contentment or satisfaction is far more likely than happiness, which tends to come in spurts.

yes, exactly. i'm Limbic and i'd say happy/content >50% of the time. i get high on life! :smile:

i hate the global 5 because there are clearly "better" and "worse" traits. i have no interest in ranking people.

i'm inclined to say that one's MBTI type does not usually change over time because of the stability of genetics plus very, very ingrained thought patterns, which snowball from a very early age into world conceptualization, values, and behavior patterns. however, i would assume that major psychological trauma could change type.
 

INTP

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Absurd. Even assuming these are the key elements, which I don't, a lot of these are debatable.

I'll give you the sociable.

Agreeable over egocentric could be T or P over F. People who operate on reason general don't get their egos hurt or bolstered as easily and are agreeable as long something makes sense. Even then, they would respond with reason, not emotional reaction. P people are more relaxed and are less likely to posit strong opposition.

Organized over unorganized can be fairly J, though the last one seems like it might favor the opposite trait, so it's a wash.

Calm over neurotic, which you skipped, seems maybe P or S.

Inquisitive over non-inquisitive, maybe the N argument could be made. It's not super-strong, but I can see it a bit.

So we have ExTP as the weighted best answer. Leaning toward ENTP.

Of course, the next person could interpret it differently from you or I.

i have been reading about MBTI-Big 5 correlations from many researches and the key point of understanding the correlations is that for example big 5 extroversion isnt the same thing as MBTI extraversion, they are very similar, but big 5 is more about the outcome of extroversion, while MBTI is about the extraversion of functions, extraversion of dom function usually does lead to similar outcome than what big 5 extroversion is, but its still bit different thing. its same with all the dimensions.

all the studies said that there is mediocre to strong correlations between scales of agreeableness and F, openness and intuition, extroversion and extraversion, conscientiousness and J. but because the definitions arent exactly the same for all of those, the correlation isnt 100%, but something between 70%-85%. all of the studies also showed that there is no correlation between neuroticism and any MBTI scales.
 

INTP

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It's also a FACT that happier people are more organized?

So help me god....

i have seen studies that confirm this, its measured simply by doing big 5 test and some happiness scale test to people and comparing the scores. so the study doesent say that extroversion or orderliness leads to happiness or that happiness leads to orderliness and extraversion, its just shows that people who score high on conscientiousness and extroversion also score high on happiness more than disorganized and introverted. if i remember right, this correlation disappears in the extreme ends of big 5 scales, but dunno if i remember right
 

King sns

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MBTI is still a theory, and a pseudo science at best, so the entire premise is up for question. No, our DNA makeup doesn't change, but other things do, and people change behaviors over the course of their life all the time. If we at typo c could make any kind of a claim about the true wiring, (or rewiring) of the brain using this theory, then we wouldn't be here.

Also, since type is self reported and VERY open to interpretation based on different environments, it's easy to be able to justify anything. (Perhaps someone's DNA didn't change, but perspective on their own behavior did. The labels are just that, labels. If we all agree that an apple is called an "orange", then an apple then becomes an orange, despite the fact that the item itself didn't actually change.) Since we don't have PET scans (or like tests) relating to very broad "cognitive function" theories, the entire system is still wide open to interpretation. It's about as clear as the Bible.

The only true argument to say that "MBTI type doesn't change" is that technically the theorists did spend a lot of time studying and writing about the theory, (unlike us) and if we argue with the the theory, then we technically have a new theory all together. Or we could just agree that DNA doesn't change (without saying anything about adaption and changing of the brain.)
 

Venom

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tests only measure the outcome of personality, the outcome changes, but the core of personality((function order)/personality as described by jung) grows. it takes new directions, due to adaptation to new situations and past experiences, people learn new ways of acting out(persona changes) in situations, adaptation styles change.
you are looking at the ego(jungian term, not freudian) growth there, but ego isnt the same as personality(you should know that being psychology student too), this also fools MBTI tests, like persona, but neither are the personality type.

aka, you are insulating the theory of MBTI from external data. Factual statements that aren't supported empirically, are basically going to fall into one of two categories: true by definition (2+2 = 4), or true "just because"/metaphysical. So our options are:
<> accept jungian MBTI as a synthetic a priori (ie metaphysics..."MBTI religion")
<> pretend MBTI is as necessary and universal as 2 + 2 = 4
<> accept that MBTI needs to be measured to external data... aka keirsey or big 5.
MECE
 

Thalassa

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aka, you are insulating the theory of MBTI from external data. Factual statements that aren't supported empirically, are basically going to fall into one of two categories: true by definition (2+2 = 4), or true "just because"/metaphysical. So our options are:
<> accept jungian MBTI as a synthetic a priori (ie metaphysics..."MBTI religion")
<> pretend MBTI is as necessary and universal as 2 + 2 = 4
<> accept that MBTI needs to be measured to external data... aka keirsey or big 5.
MECE

But Keirsey isn't even measured realistically to external data. It's based upon horrible generalizations. Jungian function theory is actually more accurate based upon observable data.

You sure can tell someone's functions from "observable data" just not as simplistically as the four dichotomies, you actually have to dig for motive and thinking style.
 

Venom

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But Keirsey isn't even measured realistically to external data. It's based upon horrible generalizations. Jungian function theory is actually more accurate based upon observable data.

You sure can tell someone's functions from "observable data" just not as simplistically as the four dichotomies, you actually have to dig for motive and thinking style.

I should be more clear. When I say "keirsey", I typically actually mean "interaction styles" crossed with "temperament" (which actually might be a Beebe thing?). I find it to be the most accurate matrix of typing someone without actually seeing their thoughts or input. I admit that its NOT the SAME as MBTI self reporting on functions, but its less voodooish because people's actions are available for all to see and interpret, rather than guessing about people's thoughts and how these singular thoughts are made up by many combinations of functions... :/
 

Thalassa

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I should be more clear. When I say "keirsey", I typically actually mean "interaction styles" crossed with "temperament" (which actually might be a Beebe thing?). I find it to be the most accurate matrix of typing someone without actually seeing their thoughts or input. I admit that its NOT the SAME as MBTI self reporting on functions, but its less voodooish because people's actions are available for all to see and interpret, rather than guessing about people's thoughts and how these singular thoughts are made up by many combinations of functions... :/

I thought that at first, too. But then I actually read Jung. And Beebe. And Lenore Thomson.

You're hard-pressed, realistically, to type anyone you can't have a conversation with. The functional attitudes come out there mostly. However, there are trends which can be more loosely observed.

With Keirsey you just look and see what you want to see and slap a label on it, that's sincerely how I feel about Keirsey. With functional attitudes you actually have discussions with people and ask them questions to see what's going on in their mind as well observing their behavior.

I don't like the way Keirsey over-generalizes, it's like he takes a particular cultural form of Si and calls it "SJ"...but he's not really seeing Si, he's seeing a singular cultural manifestation of Si, which is bull crap.

Not only that, but I have so much cross-over on NF/SP despite Keirsey's claims that NF and SP are so different in their motivations. This is apparently common in ENxP types from people I've discussed this with, so Keirsey is missing something fundamental to Ne, it would appear.
 

Valiant

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MBTI type does change. Humans are on the top of the food chain because we adapt, after all.
MBTI is a reflection of what we are most of the time.
What you are most of the time can change, depending on your environment. We're all defined by it, more or less.
I mean, you even eat and breathe your environment. Without it, there is nothing.
What you are is the sum of who you have the capability to be and what you need to be. Also to some extent what you want to be, of course.
 

King sns

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MBTI type does change. Humans are on the top of the food chain because we adapt, after all.
MBTI is a reflection of what we are most of the time.
What you are most of the time can change, depending on your environment. We're all defined by it, more or less.
I mean, you even eat and breathe your environment. Without it, there is nothing.
What you are is the sum of who you have the capability to be and what you need to be. Also to some extent what you want to be, of course.

Exactly. Our brains change and adjust based on all the nuances of our surroundings. Otherwise we'd be robots. It's what makes our minds different from our kidneys or lungs, (despite the fact that it's coded with the same DNA.) Despite difficulty in changing our neural chemistry, I believe that it can happen over time. (Something similar to quitting smoking or changing your eating habits.) We're actually much too complicated to be fully defined by an MBTI type. If we all TRULY followed the function system or were our types 100% of the time with no room for change, we would find that some people are exactly alike in every situation.(Because with only 16 behavioral options you statistically are going to run out of room and end up having to create a lot of very similar people.) And we don't. And we never will. And that's why it's untrue to say that "our type doesn't change" or we can't be something outside of a small box of behaviors, and our behaviors and thoughts and motivations can't vary greatly throughout our lifespan.
 

Thalassa

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Yes we have brain plasticity but we have predominant perspectives and strengths that develop because of preference.

You can be a very intelligent ESFP or an ignorant one. You can be an ESFP in India as easily as the United States. You can be an ESFP if you're working class or upper class.

But the underlying functions are the same. We act differently in different situations, but feel most comfortable in our "default" mode. You can stress and warp yourself as an ENFP to act like ESTJ but you'll end up miserable and tired.
 

redacted

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I don't really know why MBTI types couldn't change, although I'd be willing to say they don't often change. A person that says their type has changed is likely to have been wrong about one of the two types. But I just don't really see a good justification for concluding they cannot possibly change.

Also, Big Five is sweet. I don't really get the argument that the system is bad because there can be "bad" traits -- it's a descriptive tool and nothing more (which it seems people often forget). If I were to define a spectrum of social grace to social awkwardness, is that "bad" because one side of that spectrum is preferable? Are we really so unwilling to accept that people have undesirable traits?
 

INTP

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MBTI type does change. Humans are on the top of the food chain because we adapt, after all.
MBTI is a reflection of what we are most of the time.
What you are most of the time can change, depending on your environment. We're all defined by it, more or less.
I mean, you even eat and breathe your environment. Without it, there is nothing.
What you are is the sum of who you have the capability to be and what you need to be. Also to some extent what you want to be, of course.

what does our large brains and hands that made us get on the top of the food chain have to do with whether our personality changes or not? :unsure:

reflection of who we are is our ego, not our personality type, personality type goes further from ego. its the ego that is changing not the personality type, our ego and interaction style is what is adapting to environment, you are confusing those things to personality type.

what you are capable of is about your shadow, what you need to be is your temperaments adjusting itself(not changing itself) to environment and what you want to be is your persona, none of those has nothing to do with your personality type(or maybe the potentials on your shadow).

Exactly. Our brains change and adjust based on all the nuances of our surroundings. Otherwise we'd be robots. It's what makes our minds different from our kidneys or lungs, (despite the fact that it's coded with the same DNA.) Despite difficulty in changing our neural chemistry, I believe that it can happen over time. (Something similar to quitting smoking or changing your eating habits.) We're actually much too complicated to be fully defined by an MBTI type. If we all TRULY followed the function system or were our types 100% of the time with no room for change, we would find that some people are exactly alike in every situation.(Because with only 16 behavioral options you statistically are going to run out of room and end up having to create a lot of very similar people.) And we don't. And we never will. And that's why it's untrue to say that "our type doesn't change" or we can't be something outside of a small box of behaviors, and our behaviors and thoughts and motivations can't vary greatly throughout our lifespan.

type isnt an behavioral option lol, it has nothing to do with your behavior(or does in socionics, but thats why it sucks balls).

its funny that everyone claiming that type does change, doesent know what type even is.

i used this as an example for test where we had to write an essay about genes and personality(ill just write a short version here):

everyone knows(in scientific community) that personality is determined by genes and how these genes are activated due to environment(if you dont agree, go to school). this is studied by identical twin studies that have been adopted to different families.

extraversion is a trait that can be noticed even in very small babies, so it seems that there is strong genetic effect for this trait. now if you take an extraverted identical twins to different families when they were babies and other environment supports the extraversion and other tries to repress it(or doesent support it as much as it would be needed). other child would be able to express his need to act extraverted, but the other one would have to repress these extraverted traits(at least to some extend). naturally the one that gets to express these traits would act more extraverted than the one who needs to repress these tendencies.

neurophysically extraversion is lower idle activity overally, higher activity on frontal cortex when activated and lower activity in dopamine system compared to introverts. lower idle activity causes extraverted people to seek stimuli from external world as this low activity causes anxiety(how much of this depends how extraverted the person is). introverts on the other hand get overstimulated easily, because its the higher idle activity + activity needed to act extraverted. dopamine system works as a reward system, so extraverts need to seek out more things from external world that activates the dopamine system to get the same "reward doze" than introverts.

the child that needs to repress his natural tendencies to extravert, would naturally be less happy with his life situation as he needs more activation of the brains to not feel anxiety and to get the "reward doze" that he needs to feel happy. naturally he would adjust to the situation by not trying to extravert so much and if the environment is repressing this tendency enough, he would even start to seem like an introvert, but an unhappy introvert(naturally there are other factors to happiness too, but lets just leave them out from this or this will get too complicated).

lets assume that he has managed to repress these extraverted tendencies enough. now at his early adult years, he would most likely think that he is an introvert and would score as an introvert in self report tests(like MBTI, big 5 etc) because he sees himself as an introvert(not the life of the party, doesent think that he needs all that much stimuli etc). but these tests just measure the outcome of the personality, but thats not what the MBTI/jungian typology is about, they are not behavioral tests, even tho they test self-reported behavior, they are about how the person naturally acts. they test persona, not personality, because the underlying personality is too hard to measure in self-report tests for several reasons.

now the two genetically same people who are both extraverted by nature, would most likely score differently on E-I scale. but the one that would score I, would actually be E acting out like I. later in life he would most likely get the need to extravert more. from his point of view, it seems that he has changed personality and MBTI test would measure his type differently.

lets say this person is ENTP for example, he would have repressed his Ne in early years, but even tho his Ne would have been lower in early adulthood than his Ti, it doesent mean that he would have turned into INTP, because for ENTP its the Ti that has been developed to support his Ne and for INTP its Ne that has been developed to support the Ti. this is so fundamental part of personality that it doesent change. only what is seen outside varies. in MBTI/jungian typology E is determined by the orientation of the first function, the first function doesent change places with other functions.

if you look at how brain plasticity works, it will tell you the same thing. those fundamental parts that you have created in early life are so strong that they dont disappear, because thats where you use your other functions from and when using those other functions(Ti is always supporting Ne with ENTP), you are also using the functions that support the part that you have repressed. repressing that E from you just takes it out of the conscious thinking.

neuroplasticity works by degenerating what is not used and generating new connections that are needed. Ne is still used, even tho you try to repress it, its just the extraverted tendencies that are repressed to unconscious. and repressing things doesent make them not used, they just cut it out from the conscious thinking.
 

Valiant

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^ That's all pretty narrow-minded. Try listening a little instead... MBTI isn't a perfect system, and you can't force people to accept something as impossible because the system says so.
Besides, like someone said earlier... Too many false assumptions and shoddy research.
 

King sns

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Yes we have brain plasticity but we have predominant perspectives and strengths that develop because of preference.

You can be a very intelligent ESFP or an ignorant one. You can be an ESFP in India as easily as the United States. You can be an ESFP if you're working class or upper class.

But the underlying functions are the same. We act differently in different situations, but feel most comfortable in our "default" mode. You can stress and warp yourself as an ENFP to act like ESTJ but you'll end up miserable and tired.

(This following post is written given a lot of personal bias, so bare with me.)

I think I'd feel more miserable and tired in situations where ESFP was the best way to be all the time. Everyone (balanced) needs generalizations, big picture, theory, details, hindsight, present moment, introspection, reflection, socialization, external stimulation, justice, mercy, adaptability, and structure to happily survive. The only rating system for personality has to do with relativity to another person. Who is anyone to say what that's supposed to mean? Who is anyone to say how these preferences might change throughout the course of a life? I don't think it's easy- or even common. Certainly not impossible.

Lets say an INTP went into the military, became typical military material. Most people around here will say, "oh, they developed their Fe or Si" (some J function.) or some other pathological/ shadow (whatever thing that neatly fits with the theory.) Who are we to say that he's not simply a J now? (or an "x", has a preference for both, completely disregarding functions.) He's just now happy with schedules, plans, and routines. And that's it. These theories are so fuzzy that you can mold them to fit any piece of any situation, (which makes a good theory and a tricky one to debate about, but doesn't necessarily mean that it's true all of the time.)


I just think when people test a bunch of functions like

Te
Fi
Ne
Ni
Se
Ti
Fe
Si

Trying to call them an "ENTJ who will always be an ENTJ" is just being overly adherent to a theory that simply doesn't work for this person. Or even if they test moderate on dichotomy percentages and are changeable on some/ strong in both. The theory could have more room for change and leeway.
 
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