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  1. #281
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nottaprettygal View Post
    So, SW. . . I'm coming to you because you're an expert.

    What would it mean if I test INTJ and identify more with the INTJ profile, but my Ti and Ni are almost equal in strength (with my Te ranking quite a bit lower)?

    I'm having an identity crisis!
    This is the order that our functions tend to grow in.

    Ni
    Te
    Ne
    Ti
    Fi
    Fe
    Se
    Si

    20-30, you will be comfortable with the Ni and will focus more on the Te, while your Fi begins to grow. So you could easily feel like the Te is dominant.

    Why would you think that you dont have a Te at all?

    Because the Ni-Te can make your thinking faculty seem introverted because the whole INTJ type is so introverted.

  2. #282
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nottaprettygal View Post
    Nope. That's the thing, I can't tie it to any sort of life event. My childhood was normal, and I did normal kid things (mainly because my parents encouraged me to), but I've always pretty much lived inside of my own head.

    I can see how some of my functions would have become more introverted in recent years, but meh. . . I've pretty much always been this way. It's annoying at times.
    huh. That's interesting...

    Do you happen to have your eight-function scores on the forums somewhere or handy?

    Do you score highly introverted (compared to the other traits) on the MBTI tests themselves? I could guess that someone who is naturally very solitary and introverted might naturally develop their Xi functions.

    What sort of problems does it cause? Do you have trouble actually getting things done in "RL" (i.e., implementing the idea vs just imagining it), or just feel ineffectual?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #283
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that an INTP who has been trained to be open-minded (was subjected to a lot of studies) will probably be more open-minded than an INTJ who was not.
    Both have more experience with formal education.

    All in all, if you give them the same resources and they are of equal talent, in the end INTJ will prove to be open-minded. If they dont, than something isnt right here... you better make sure that they really are a primary Ni...
    So, what you are saying is that the theory is absolute. It must be correct. Are you trying to prove that INTPs are not as open/flexible as INTJs by demonstration? If so, you haven't dealt with an INTJ that believes something deeply. You are going to have to be a lot more forceful than this.

    Both are INTJs, though my GF is not formally tested, my friend was.

    As for the rest I cannot withhold the statement that Ti is the most analytical function and INTP is decidedly more analytical than an INTJ... and Ni the most imaginative and INTJ is decidely more imaginative than an INTP.
    Ti is more analytical than Te because Ti is more flexible to alternative theories. Again, by definition, Ti is TP, and Te is TJ. The flexible dimension results from the P and J - Te is fundamentally different than Ti in that regard. Ni-Te is the creative approach to creating a fixed result. Being 'open' is only one part of being an N. And flexible and open aren't interchangeable, especially not when open refers to creativity and the like.

    An INTJ will schedule a fixed set of concepts and see them through. He is creating an inflexible environment, one that was created in his head before. An INTP can be just (if not more so) creative, but will then continue to adapt his ideas (internal) and the world around him (external). If you had to listen to the rules that my GF set down at work... And dear god, if you had to see how certain chores 'have to be done'...

    I can give you dozens, if not hundreds, of stories of how INTJs dictate a system/schedule and that it exists in their mind even more than in practice... Just as I can tell you stories for myself - and my ENTP friend - that shows the exact opposite from the NTPs.

    Did you see the picture of the dog that I posted? That dog was dumped on my lap. I'm flexible, however, and haven't defined my environment, so I worked the dog into our life. I'll let you guess how my GF reacted, despite it being her choice to take the dog. And my INTJ friends is getting married? Want to hear about his wedding schedule? Want to hear how he planned his proposal? I quite love the story from my friend that cut lunch short (while with his date) so that they wouldn't be late for their walk. Their open ended walk. (The quality that she saw in him was that his attempt to make everything work perfectly was charming! Her words...)

    I'm not sure what it would take to show you that reality is not reflecting your theory. Let me know what conditions would change your mind, and I'll try to satisfy them.

    Keep in mind though... just because you spend a lot of time with the INTJ and have an emotional bondage with them it does not mean that they will be comfortable discussing ideas with you and still may not show you their Ni.
    As an analytical INTP, do you not see the flaw with dismissing things with such a blanket statement. Anything I say can be thrown away, simply because you don't agree with it.

  4. #284
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Both have more experience with formal education.



    So, what you are saying is that the theory is absolute. It must be correct. Are you trying to prove that INTPs are not as open/flexible as INTJs by demonstration? If so, you haven't dealt with an INTJ that believes something deeply. You are going to have to be a lot more forceful than this.

    Both are INTJs, though my GF is not formally tested, my friend was.



    Ti is more analytical than Te because Ti is more flexible to alternative theories. Again, by definition, Ti is TP, and Te is TJ. The flexible dimension results from the P and J - Te is fundamentally different than Ti in that regard. Ni-Te is the creative approach to creating a fixed result. Being 'open' is only one part of being an N. And flexible and open aren't interchangeable, especially not when open refers to creativity and the like.

    An INTJ will schedule a fixed set of concepts and see them through. He is creating an inflexible environment, one that was created in his head before. An INTP can be just (if not more so) creative, but will then continue to adapt his ideas (internal) and the world around him (external). If you had to listen to the rules that my GF set down at work... And dear god, if you had to see how certain chores 'have to be done'...

    I can give you dozens, if not hundreds, of stories of how INTJs dictate a system/schedule and that it exists in their mind even more than in practice... Just as I can tell you stories for myself - and my ENTP friend - that shows the exact opposite from the NTPs.

    Did you see the picture of the dog that I posted? That dog was dumped on my lap. I'm flexible, however, and haven't defined my environment, so I worked the dog into our life. I'll let you guess how my GF reacted, despite it being her choice to take the dog. And my INTJ friends is getting married? Want to hear about his wedding schedule? Want to hear how he planned his proposal? I quite love the story from my friend that cut lunch short (while with his date) so that they wouldn't be late for their walk. Their open ended walk. (The quality that she saw in him was that his attempt to make everything work perfectly was charming! Her words...)

    I'm not sure what it would take to show you that reality is not reflecting your theory. Let me know what conditions would change your mind, and I'll try to satisfy them.



    As an analytical INTP, do you not see the flaw with dismissing things with such a blanket statement. Anything I say can be thrown away, simply because you don't agree with it.
    I must say that many of your arguments are meritless. I didnt purport no theory. Just excerpts from them. Your personal attacks also hold no philosophical weight.

    INTJs impose structure because this is the way their Te works.

    They chart out their visions with the Ni, which is very flexible. Than they use the Te to lay the vision to the outside. You cant see how flexible they are because they use their extroverted function to chart out the introverted vision that they have come up with with their Ni.


    What else can you expect from a Te than imposing rules and being structured on the outside. No reason to believe that this is the way they are on the inside.



    INTJs and INFJs are rigid presenters, not rigid thinkers.

    Ne clings to the external schemes and accepts them as they are, whereas Ni is more esoteric because it seperates itself from external reality. Ni is analogous to ideas as Ti to logic. They cut underneath them. This is what introversion is, seeing the world as it relates to you and not vice versa. Tes seem themselves as part of the logical equation, and Nes as part of the scheme that they are outlining.

    I am not dismissing anything that you say. All I am saying is that the INTJ telling you how things are to be done is just the Te. The way their mind works is not like the Te, Te is slave to the Ni. The flexible Ni is what came up with how things are to be done, Te is what tells others about what they came up with. Ni is the idea function, Te is just the implementor.

  5. #285
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    This thread is an excellent primer on why SW is accused of being INTJ.

  6. #286
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    This thread is an excellent primer on why SW is accused of being INTJ.
    And you are ridiculous. I bet you have not even read more than 10 posts out of this.

  7. #287
    Senior Member nottaprettygal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Why would you think that you dont have a Te at all?
    I do. It just doesn't seem to play a role for me like it does for other INTJs. I like efficiency, but I'm not interested in organzing people and external things. I only attempt to organize what's in my head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Do you happen to have your eight-function scores on the forums somewhere or handy?
    I can't find my results, and if I take it again I think I'll just screw with it because I know how to manipulate the questions. My Ti and Ni were basically tied for the highest. . . then came Fi and Ne. My Te use was only average.

    Do you score highly introverted (compared to the other traits) on the MBTI tests themselves?
    Yes. I haven't taken an MBTI test in a long time, but I is generally my strongest letter.

    What sort of problems does it cause? Do you have trouble actually getting things done in "RL" (i.e., implementing the idea vs just imagining it), or just feel ineffectual?
    Yes. I can't get anything done. I also have trouble getting close to people because I'm too stuck in my own head. When I go outside, it's like I'm walking around in some huge science experiment. I'm the scientist, and I'm watching the mice run through the maze. I don't connect with the mice, I just feel like I'm observing them and talking to the other scientists in my head about them.

    Now I feel weird just talking about myself.

  8. #288
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    I must say that many of your arguments are meritless. I didnt purport no theory. Just excerpts from them. Your personal attacks also hold no philosophical weight.
    *shrug* Your dismissal has no weight either. Especially since the theory you are operating from disagrees. I was merely trying to example it out to help you understand.

    They chart out their visions with the Ni, which is very flexible. Than they use the Te to lay the vision to the outside. You cant see how flexible they are because they use their extroverted function to chart out the introverted vision that they have come up with with their Ni.
    Interpret away.

    If you ever wish to grow your theories, I recommend starting with MBTI Step II, including an understanding of the factor analysis that developed it. I also recommend looking into Form J, or the TDI, as well as the attempted adoption of Neuroticism into MBTI.

    I also highly recommend reading about the studies going into Step III, in which J/P are further defined.

    In short, your theory is flawed. Your dismissal of evidence speaks volumes about openess and the dogmatic belief in 'just theory'. The philisophical principle that you should walk away from is that no descriptive theory is seperate from what it describes. The theory of knowledge that you practise is fundamentally flawed as a result.

    The theory you hang onto has been changed, and you have failed to change with it, despite evidence of its flaws. If you wish to understand why you can reflect on what I said or go to the source (that being CAPT or CPP... or read about it, I believe Sauders is the original work done.)


    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    This thread is an excellent primer on why SW is accused of being INTJ.
    S, actually. The nature of N is to be open to new concepts, be original. Instead, the belief in absolute theory (Kant to MBTI) corresponds with S over N more than J over P. Js, when confrounted with evidence, will consider it - their holdup is in adopting new information... I'd say the only reason he tested N is because he loves theory... even if it is pulled from more traditional sources. I don't think he'd test INTP on a Step II, especially if he didn't know anything about MBTI.

    Or it's just age. I was pretty cocksure when I was a kid too.

    (My analogy for the day;
    Think of J/P like a barrier of entry, and S/N like a hill. Once the ball is high enough to get over the J barrier, an NJ will roll with it - downhill. However, an SP has no problem with barriers to entry - "try anything once!" but they are always against adopting it (rolling the ball uphill). Hence why SJs are so difficult to convince of anything - and almost always revert to their social norm... while NPs tend to be so open that their brains fall out.)

  9. #289
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    *shrug* Your dismissal has no weight either. Especially since the theory you are operating from disagrees. I was merely trying to example it out to help you understand.



    Interpret away.

    If you ever wish to grow your theories, I recommend starting with MBTI Step II, including an understanding of the factor analysis that developed it. I also recommend looking into Form J, or the TDI, as well as the attempted adoption of Neuroticism into MBTI.

    I also highly recommend reading about the studies going into Step III, in which J/P are further defined.

    In short, your theory is flawed. Your dismissal of evidence speaks volumes about openess and the dogmatic belief in 'just theory'. The philisophical principle that you should walk away from is that no descriptive theory is seperate from what it describes. The theory of knowledge that you practise is fundamentally flawed as a result.

    The theory you hang onto has been changed, and you have failed to change with it, despite evidence of its flaws. If you wish to understand why you can reflect on what I said or go to the source (that being CAPT or CPP... or read about it, I believe Sauders is the original work done.)




    S, actually. The nature of N is to be open to new concepts, be original. Instead, the belief in absolute theory (Kant to MBTI) corresponds with S over N more than J over P. Js, when confrounted with evidence, will consider it - their holdup is in adopting new information... I'd say the only reason he tested N is because he loves theory... even if it is pulled from more traditional sources. I don't think he'd test INTP on a Step II, especially if he didn't know anything about MBTI.

    Or it's just age. I was pretty cocksure when I was a kid too.

    (My analogy for the day;
    Think of J/P like a barrier of entry, and S/N like a hill. Once the ball is high enough to get over the J barrier, an NJ will roll with it - downhill. However, an SP has no problem with barriers to entry - "try anything once!" but they are always against adopting it (rolling the ball uphill). Hence why SJs are so difficult to convince of anything - and almost always revert to their social norm... while NPs tend to be so open that their brains fall out.)

    Same thing again... just arbitrary accusations that evince your intense need to feel and look important on top of your inability to do honest thinking.

    I strongly recommend that you stay clear of this thread as it is obvious that there is little potential on your part to contribute and that you go elsewhere for your image building.

    Absolute theory.. WTF are you talking about... I never said anything about no absolute theory.. and as for my epistemic methodology read up on Popper's fallibilism. This an epistemic method where we do not accept any discovery as final and that we should be ready to have it replaced by something else when something better arrives. This is a complete opposite of whatever dogmatism or absolutism you've accused me of. With this falliblist mindset you'll never be cocksure of anything. You're seemingly the one who is cocksure as you have not even listened to anything I had to say. Just kept on plowing through with your anecdotes. All you said is that my theory is flawed, yet did very little to argue for how it is flawed. Just appeals to authority was all you did.

    Now again, I ask you. Please do not contact me in this thread. I gave you two chances already to show that you can do something other than throw around random anecdotes or say you're write because this or that book says so. I am not giving you a third.

    Your perversion of my ideas was manifest and unpardonable.

  10. #290
    Senior Member nottaprettygal's Avatar
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    I don't really get why everyone feels the need to critiquie SW's type. Whatever it is, at least some (not all) of his threads spark an interesting discussion.

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