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  1. #251
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Dude, it was a reply. replace the word post with the word reply in this quote of yours and you'll see the error.
    ...........

    I argued about D&D with an INTJ one a week for a few months, taking hours at each time. It took me a long while to get him from "it's the elvel system which causes all the problems" to actually seeing that what he really objected to was the size of the step inbetween each plateau and not the step itself.
    INTJs are more methodical but this does not make them less open-minded. We associate open-mindedness with intuition, and their intuition is stronger than ours. Ni is also stronger than Ne because its introverted. Like Ti is stronger than Te.

    You wont see their Ni blossom for a while... just like INFJs wont share their vision with you untill they are really comfortable... for the time being the INTJ will just show you the Te... you wont see how flexible and open-minded they are untill a while after...they are not comfortable sharing their Ni with you because the Ni is very esoteric and is oftenly out of tune with the external world. They'd be embarrassed to share most of their visions and will not untill they are really comfortable in the discourse, untill then they will just have to fall back on the Te which is significalty less flexible than the INTPs secondary Ne.

  2. #252
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    o_O I'm guessing you haven't lived with an INTJ... or hell, known one that close.

    They are open, sure, compared to an S, but the concept of an INTJ being more flexible than an INTP requires me to suspend everything I know about INTJs or redefine the word 'flexible'... neither of which change that INTPs are vastly more flexible, in all sense of the word, than INTJs.

    N does not equal flexible. P/J = flexible.

    If you look at the Step II breakdown (paraphrased);

    J = Systematic, Scheduled, Methodical
    P = Casual, Open-Ended, Spontaneous, Emergent
    N = Abstract, Conceptual, Theoretical, Original
    S = Concrete, Realistic, Practical, Traditional
    T = Logical, Reasonable, Questioning

    There is very little question that Ni is considered less flexible than Ne, as a result of NJ and NP respectively. There is nothing in N that causes people to be flexible - Ni being dominant makes them even less flexible... and Ti (TP)certainly holds more "flexibility" that the equivalent TJ.

    Meaning that J is the major determinent in how 'flexible' someone is.

    INTJs and INFJs seem very rigid on the surface and with the way they do things, but if you look within how their mind processes ideas you'll see that they are very flexible thinkers. You wont be able to notice this in discussions unless you pay very close attention untill later on. Untill they are comfortable sharing their esoteric visions with you. Many says INTJs and INFJs are rigid and closed-minded because of the way they show the wolrd their Extroverted Judging functions, yet the case is far from the truth. They are two of the most open-minded types out there because of the superior intuition and most of all Introverted Intuition.

  3. #253
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    INTJs and INFJs seem very rigid on the surface and with the way they do things, but if you look within how their mind processes ideas you'll see that they are very flexible thinkers. You wont be able to notice this in discussions unless you pay very close attention untill later on. Untill they are comfortable sharing their esoteric visions with you.
    How long do you think this should take? I started a company with one that I've known over a decade... and I've been dating one just over three years. I believe you are projecting theory onto reality, not developing theory from what you perceive.

    I suggest you take a look at the breakdown from the Step II MBTI handbook and evaluate your stance on this. The concept of dominant functions are a blend of three traits, of which two are the same for INTxs. The determining factor is the J/P divide, in which 'flexible' is an active keyword for P. The only other trait, in which you can narrowly define flexible as being 'open', is in the N/S divide. Both INTxs are intuitives, except one is actively inflexible (this is what determines their Ni trait, rather than the Ne observer).

    The belief that Ni-Te is "open" while Ti-Ne is "closed", relative to each other, is not borne out by theory or experience. Ni is not the same as Ne and traits from one cannot be claimed by the other.

    (I'll also emphasize that the critical nature of T can also influence subjective views on flexibility, as strong Ts will appear more... acidic... in their expression of their views.)
    Last edited by ptgatsby; 05-01-2007 at 12:00 PM. Reason: me no spell well

  4. #254
    ~*taaa raaa raaa boom*~ targobelle's Avatar
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    Going with OP here.... I have looked around at various tests and ideologies and I am pretty comfortable with being an enfp. I have gotten and enfj and an esfp, but honestly I think it has something to do with my mood. I do find that the more comfortable I get with myself and the more consistent I get with answering honestly the closer I come to scoring as an enfp......
    ~t ...in need of hugs please...
    Jung Test Results
    Extroverted (E) 63.16% Intuitive (N) 60.53% Feeling (F) 84.38% Perceiving (P) 87.1% ~Your type is: ENFP

  5. #255
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by targo View Post
    Going with OP here.... I have looked around at various tests and ideologies and I am pretty comfortable with being and enfp. I have gotten and enfj and an esfp, but honestly I think it has something to do with my mood. I do find that the more comfortable I get with myself and the consistent I get with answering honestly the closer I come to scoring as an enfp......
    That's a good sign, just so long as the "honesty" comes from genuine reflection!

    There is always the risk that taking the test more than once will tend to cause you to answer in increasingly consistent ways with the type you identify yourself with!

  6. #256
    ~*taaa raaa raaa boom*~ targobelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    That's a good sign, just so long as the "honesty" comes from genuine reflection!

    There is always the risk that taking the test more than once will tend to cause you to answer in increasingly consistent ways with the type you identify yourself with!

    well as an enfp I have found and learned that you always want to do what others think you should do, you have trouble thinking for yourself and you put everyones needs ahead of your own.... That is so me. So when I test as an S/J it's b/c I am being or doing what others want or expect of me rather than doing what others think of me. I could learn a lot from my 4yr old who is who he is and he doesn't give a shit what others think.
    ~t ...in need of hugs please...
    Jung Test Results
    Extroverted (E) 63.16% Intuitive (N) 60.53% Feeling (F) 84.38% Perceiving (P) 87.1% ~Your type is: ENFP

  7. #257
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    That's a good sign, just so long as the "honesty" comes from genuine reflection!

    There is always the risk that taking the test more than once will tend to cause you to answer in increasingly consistent ways with the type you identify yourself with!
    AMEN!
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  8. #258
    Senior Member Shimpei's Avatar
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    re:op

    I always test as ISFJ pretty consistently. In retrospect, I was a typical ISFJ child as well and I think I was a stronger ISFJ then than now. Still the preferences have always remained the same despite my N and T have become stronger over the years.

  9. #259
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by targo View Post
    well as an enfp I have found and learned that you always want to do what others think you should do, you have trouble thinking for yourself and you put everyones needs ahead of your own.... That is so me. So when I test as an S/J it's b/c I am being or doing what others want or expect of me rather than doing what others think of me. I could learn a lot from my 4yr old who is who he is and he doesn't give a shit what others think.
    Well, also consider that you may not be that strongly P... and never forget that both sides offer advantages. From what I've read from you, I think I can say that you are generally more F dominant... And just guessing from the quirks you listed, you are probably more P/J moderate. Obviously just speculation! I would also suspect that you are more P than J - but having a kid and managing households tends to force one to be more J, and the driving expectation to be that J can mold your perceptions too.

    (The need for acceptance comes from the FJ measurements, however... so if the F is strong, you may not need the J to feel the need to be accepted.)

  10. #260
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Is it possible that INTPs are less flexible than INTJs when it comes to taking action, but more ideologically flexible? INTJs seem to like to hold on to their beliefs/thoughts/opinions even in the face of all the evidence to the contrary, while INTPs seem more willing to flex with all those if the evidence is convincing, but not particularly flexible in their habits (or maybe that's just my INTP). INTJs are willing to change their habits if they are convinced that doing so is more effective/expedient than the way they have been doing things.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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