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Type Theory Hasn't Conquered All Because...

edcoaching

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A colleague and I were discussing what it would take to make type theory as accepted as, say, multiple intelligences. In spite of posts to the contrary, after all there are now over 11,000 bibliography entries on type theory, a preponderance of which validate the theory and the effectiveness of using it (CAPT: Training, Books, Research for MBTI, Archetypes, Leadership, Psychological Type.)

She pointed out that with the competing theories, someone is always lower in the pecking order, or there is a "right" or "wrong" way to be. Which are the best intelligences? Logical/mathematical, right? Look at funding/pay/other measures and there's a hierarchy. The Five-Factor Model...one end of each trait is associated with mental health issues, if you read the writings of those who created the NEO-PI. Most models show "THE WAY" to lead, etc.

But with type theory, there are 16 normal ways to be with their own strengths and gifts. The best decisions are made when all four functions are considered: S, N, T, F. We always need the input of others because our skills with their preferences will never be as great as theirs. In fact, as we move toward individuation we become more aware of our shortcomings, not, as some people hint, fully developed.

Type theory says, "We hold different views...and yours may be just as legitimate as mine. Let's compare our perceptions and share the rationale behind our judgments." It usually involves compromise or a complete revision of what we thought we knew. Human nature rails against both. It's easier to accept theories that say, "I'm right; you're a jerk."

I at least thought this has some merit. I'd put bets most of Congress has taken the MBTI at some point in business school or something and has managed to conveniently forget anything they learned about constructive use of differences...
 

SolitaryWalker

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A colleague and I were discussing what it would take to make type theory as accepted as, say, multiple intelligences. In spite of posts to the contrary, after all there are now over 11,000 bibliography entries on type theory, a preponderance of which validate the theory and the effectiveness of using it (CAPT: Training, Books, Research for MBTI, Archetypes, Leadership, Psychological Type.)...

The fact that 11,000 people seem to believe MBTI is effective does not mean that it truly is. Every major religion of the world can claim an even higher number of supporters, but that does not mean that all of the teachings of those religions are true.



But with type theory, there are 16 normal ways to be with their own strengths and gifts. The best decisions are made when all four functions are considered: S, N, T, F. We always need the input of others because our skills with their preferences will never be as great as theirs. In fact, as we move toward individuation we become more aware of our shortcomings, not, as some people hint, fully developed.])...

It is true that MBTI tells us something about the nature of persons, however, the question is exactly how much it tells us. Nobody is arguing that MBTI is completely useless and almost all authors educated in the subject-matter agree that the applications of MBTI have limitations. Views differ only with respect to where exactly the limitations of the system lie.


I at least thought this has some merit. I'd put bets most of Congress has taken the MBTI at some point in business school or something and has managed to conveniently forget anything they learned about constructive use of differences...

Suppose that you win your bet and most congressmen have been forced to study MBTI in their education. Does this fact show that MBTI is a good personality theory? No, in order to properly vindicate it, it would be necessary to have a clear conceptual framework and support it with empirical studies. The incoherence and vagueness of MBTI concepts has rendered such a study difficult. Unless you can make your own arguments for why MBTI describes human personality well or provide links to such arguments made by others, you're not helping matters at all. In fact, you're merely reinforcing the common view no the subject that MBTI is a simple self-help manual founded on mystical principles that seem compelling to its supporters yet untenable to outsiders. The same could be said about the leading authors on spirituality and religious propagandists.

Here are some good questions to think about.

1. A personality theory describes how people differ from one another, how specifically does MBTI maintain people differ from each other?
2. Is it truly the case that people differ from one another in the respect that the MBTI theorists have in mind?
3. Are the underlined personality differences significant? That is are the character features described by MBTI fundamental to a person's character? Why should we focus on the personality features emphasized by MBTI rather than another system, such as the BIG 5 for example?
 

proteanmix

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I honestly would hate it if this ever happened.

I went to a job interview last week and the interviewer asked if I knew about MBTI and I had an internal eye roll that I hope did not register on my face. I then pretended to know very little about it and she told me her type and then said "Well I know I'm an extrovert, and I think I remember getting feeling or something like that but I can't remember the rest, I know there are a few other letters..." Then I got paranoid that she may be on this forum.

If I have to use this forum as an experiment for those who know about MBTI I would say it is horribly abused and not used to overcome difference. I can especially see the I/E and S/N dichotomies being abused. I know the two phrases I see most often in job descriptions are "Must be able to work individually and as part of a team" and "Detail-oriented with the ability to see the big picture." I think the detail-oriented AND big picture would require some serious tertiary and inferior development especially for perceiving dominants: IJs and EPs.
 

edcoaching

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A lot of those studies have been in peer-reviewed journals and get at just the things you're citing. That was her point. The research is there. Why not use the five-factor? It presents labels that are not helpful in team building. And my point on Congress was that people are exposed to the theory yet do not go beyond self discovery for the very reason I started the post--delving deeply means admitting that other points of view are as valid as your own.
 

edcoaching

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I honestly would hate it if this ever happened.

I went to a job interview last week and the interviewer asked if I knew about MBTI and I had an internal eye roll that I hope did not register on my face. I then pretended to know very little about it and she told me her type and then said "Well I know I'm an extrovert, and I think I remember getting feeling or something like that but I can't remember the rest, I know there are a few other letters..." Then I got paranoid that she may be on this forum.

If I have to use this forum as an experiment for those who know about MBTI I would say it is horribly abused and not used to overcome difference. I can especially see the I/E and S/N dichotomies being abused. I know the two phrases I see most often in job descriptions are "Must be able to work individually and as part of a team" and "Detail-oriented with the ability to see the big picture." I think the detail-oriented AND big picture would require some serious tertiary and inferior development especially for perceiving dominants: IJs and EPs.

You'd hate if what ever happened? That people would actually learn to listen to each other?
 

PeaceBaby

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In fact, as we move toward individuation we become more aware of our shortcomings, not, as some people hint, fully developed.

Type theory says, "We hold different views...and yours may be just as legitimate as mine. Let's compare our perceptions and share the rationale behind our judgments." It usually involves compromise or a complete revision of what we thought we knew. Human nature rails against both. It's easier to accept theories that say, "I'm right; you're a jerk."

I at least thought this has some merit. I'd put bets most of Congress has taken the MBTI at some point in business school or something and has managed to conveniently forget anything they learned about constructive use of differences...

@bold: agreed. In fact, I like that sentence; there's a wisdom to that.

@purple: This is, I think, one of the best usages of MBTI. It validates at the very least that there are multiple ways of perceiving and interacting with the world and each has a credible claim to contemplation.

At worst, people use it like some sort of divining rod, and try to wrap their world and life around the concepts. "I couldn't do that, I'm an XXXX"- type of thinking.
 

SolitaryWalker

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A lot of those studies have been in peer-reviewed journals and get at just the things you're citing. That was her point. The research is there..

Where could such works be found? I've heard plenty of gossip about the existence of scientific study of MBTI, however, I have not yet come across a single one.
 

fusetah

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Where could such works be found? I've heard plenty of gossip about the existence of scientific study of MBTI, however, I have not yet come across a single one.

I'd like to know this aswell.


Sidenote; I hear that Jungs personality types was created around the results of 100 experimental participants in Schweiz.
 

proteanmix

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You'd hate if what ever happened? That people would actually learn to listen to each other?

I'd love it if people actually listened to each other, but you don't need MBTI to learn how to do that. I understand that you're saying MBTI is another method of facilitation and I agree with that if it weren't so abused by people who use it for nothing other than to confirm their superiority to others. We've got enough of that going around based on other factors.

You can google active listening skills and a ton of stuff comes out without even mentioning MBTI. I'd prefer those be taught as a first line than MBTI.
 

edcoaching

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I'd love it if people actually listened to each other, but you don't need MBTI to learn how to do that. I understand that you're saying MBTI is another method of facilitation and I agree with that if it weren't so abused by people who use it for nothing other than to confirm their superiority to others. We've got enough of that going around based on other factors.

You can google active listening skills and a ton of stuff comes out without even mentioning MBTI. I'd prefer those be taught as a first line than MBTI.

There was a study posted just today at TCRecord: Article on two types of listening and how hard it is for some people to learn the more effective one...

Notice I don't say MBTI but type theory...handing around instruments isn't using the theory. In the hands of people who don't know what they're doing it gets abused. The theory itself holds all 16 types as equal.
 

edcoaching

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I'd like to know this aswell.


Sidenote; I hear that Jungs personality types was created around the results of 100 experimental participants in Schweiz.

Actually it was 16 people in Minneapolis; that's where the first applications materials were developed :)
 

edcoaching

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@bold: agreed. In fact, I like that sentence; there's a wisdom to that.

@purple: This is, I think, one of the best usages of MBTI. It validates at the very least that there are multiple ways of perceiving and interacting with the world and each has a credible claim to contemplation.

At worst, people use it like some sort of divining rod, and try to wrap their world and life around the concepts. "I couldn't do that, I'm an XXXX"- type of thinking.

:smile:
 

fusetah

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Actually it was 16 people in Minneapolis; that's where the first applications materials were developed :)

They just happened to be 16 different "types" aswell?

Are you sure the 16 diden't come after the said 100?
 

edcoaching

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If you are looking for a study such as was done to create the NEO-PI you won't find quite the same thing. Although the correlations between the two are significant. I'm not interested in studies that validate the MBTI instrument itself. Many of the more important results are in the applications, as far as I'm concerned. Read Health Care Communication Using Personality Type: Patients are Different! by Allen and Brock, for example. They used Critical Incident Technique to investigate differences in patient needs, a widely accepted method. Or, the engineering education studies at Richard Felder: Resources in Science and Engineering Education that changed who was graduating. I'm giving very specific examples, not pointing to the only things I know of. Or, go to CAPT: Training, Books, Research for MBTI, Archetypes, Leadership, Psychological Type. and search the bibliography for publications you believe are worthy and see what you find.
 

the state i am in

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implementation is almost untenable. i discuss this with my entp friend who wants to create social experiments and develop market research tools. we both see our own roles as facilitators, communicators, inventors, futurists, project leaders, and humanitarians. it helps focus our hypotheses, but it must remain implicit and in the background rather than being foregrounded scientifically.

problems:
-power over the socio-symbolic identity of another
-definition of patterns so abstract as cognitive functions
-cognitive science and scientific approaches
-the unbridged chasms between clinical testing, self-report, and theory in psychology
-perceived differences in status of various types

i agree that skilled practitioners can help deal with some of these issues with a well-cultivated sensitivity, but i don't know that i prefer an official stance. there's too much invested in a company line, an authoritative institutionalized word.

currently, psychology is rather impotent (for counselors) (and for sorority girls) and psychiatry holds the real power (as it's connected to drug research). i think the best usage of type theory will be in helping expand pedagogical approaches and tightening our own understanding of how students can learn best. it also can fit into rhetoric, composition, pedagogy curriculums. the whole life coach approach by like a type theory guru seems about as good as it gets for now.
 

proteanmix

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implementation is almost untenable. i discuss this with my entp friend who wants to create social experiments and develop market research tools. we both see our own roles as facilitators, communicators, inventors, futurists, project leaders, and humanitarians. it helps focus our hypotheses, but it must remain implicit and in the background rather than being foregrounded scientifically.

problems:
-power over the socio-symbolic identity of another
-definition of patterns so abstract as cognitive functions
-cognitive science and scientific approaches
-the unbridged chasms between clinical testing, self-report, and theory in psychology
-perceived differences in status of various types

i agree that skilled practitioners can help deal with some of these issues with a well-cultivated sensitivity, but i don't know that i prefer an official stance. there's too much invested in a company line, an authoritative institutionalized word.

currently, psychology is rather impotent (for counselors) (and for sorority girls) and psychiatry holds the real power (as it's connected to drug research). i think the best usage of type theory will be in helping expand pedagogical approaches and tightening our own understanding of how students can learn best. it also can fit into rhetoric, composition, pedagogy curriculums. the whole life coach approach by like a type theory guru seems about as good as it gets for now.

I agree with this.

But I find the bolded interesting because the status (not just perceived, the actual status) of those roles are decidedly not detail oriented or boots on the ground. Notice how you've already positioned yourselves in the hierarchy?
 

PeaceBaby

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You can google active listening skills and a ton of stuff comes out without even mentioning MBTI. I'd prefer those be taught as a first line than MBTI.

What I hear you saying is that it would be good if people learned to listen first. Well said. :)
 

heart

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I'd hate to see MBTI used as anything other than a private, personal test for use by the self.


I think it should be a matter or privacy what someone tests as in personality like this. It's no one's business. Especially not someone in human resources at a job.
 

edcoaching

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I'd hate to see MBTI used as anything other than a private, personal test for use by the self.
It's actually unethical for a practitioner to share the results of the actual instrument with anyone else but the person who took it. In a well-facilitated teambuilding session, however, people see that all the differences are great ways to be. I don't have trouble getting people to share voluntarily.

I think it should be a matter or privacy what someone tests as in personality like this. It's no one's business. Especially not someone in human resources at a job.
As far as for employee selection, it's unethical and always has been, besides being pointless. First, it's a self reporting instrument and therefore the results need to be interpreted before one determines best fit type. Second results say nothing about skills so it's useless as a selection tool. Third the "outlier" on a team, with the right skills, can be the best source of wisdom because of the whole constructive use of differences with which I started this thread. HR can actually make poor choices if they exclude using inventory results...

But what I really started this thread over is the actual theory--that all types are created equal. Is that too radical for human beings to accept? That an overarching framework might not be a hierarchy?
 

the state i am in

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I agree with this.

But I find the bolded interesting because the status (not just perceived, the actual status) of those roles are decidedly not detail oriented or boots on the ground. Notice how you've already positioned yourselves in the hierarchy?

we generate new ideas. why would we see ourselves as detail oriented, when that is what we are not?

the status is prescribed by how people value different tasks, and rarity, and the way various skills fit into social games. it's still a market in which we exchange our skills for something else given back to us.

also, we are both sx leads, so we both desire a big and impactful self-expression/self-assertion. i imagine the specific cultural space plays a large role in helping these desires find their own way and develop their own form/shape/expectations.
 
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