Holy crap!--the orientation of the tertiary?!

[Kalach]

So I asked a guy--and I forget his exact qualifications but he's been an MBTI Consultant for years, trains consultants and is a degree qualified neuropsychologist, and ENFP--and he said he favors Isabel's interpretation of Jung: that a person has (eventual access to) 4 cognitive functions and that the dominant has one orientation and the other three functions are oriented opposite to the dominant. So, if your dominant is e, all the others are i, and vice versa. So I asked him, how do you know? He said, I observed it. I asked, how did you observe it? He said, in lots of lengthy MBTI consults and debriefs.

Official MBTI position currently in discussing type dynamics is to leave the orientation of the tertiary unspecified. So I guess it's a real debate. Either that or the institution is just taking a while to officially change a position that had been held for fifty years.

But this guy said his observations supported the traditional model.



Yeah, I know this looks like an argument from authority, but what if his observations are real?



Free research project for someone: Enneagram variations and tertiary orientation.

Hypothesis: INTJ 5w4 have Fi as tertiary while INTJ 4's--or 8's or 1's or whatever--have Fe (and are trying not to implode).

 

[edcoaching]

So I asked a guy--and I forget his exact qualifications but he's been an MBTI Consultant for years, trains consultants and is a degree qualified neuropsychologist, and ENFP--and he said he favors Isabel's interpretation of Jung: that a person has (eventual access to) 4 cognitive functions and that the dominant has one orientation and the other three functions are oriented opposite to the dominant. So, if your dominant is e, all the others are i, and vice versa. So I asked him, how do you know? He said, I observed it. I asked, how did you observe it? He said, in lots of lengthy MBTI consults and debriefs.

Official MBTI position currently in discussing type dynamics is to leave the orientation of the tertiary unspecified. So I guess it's a real debate. Either that or the institution is just taking a while to officially change a position that had been held for fifty years.

But this guy said his observations supported the traditional model.



Yeah, I know this looks like an argument from authority, but what if his observations are real?



Free research project for someone: Enneagram variations and tertiary orientation.

Hypothesis: INTJ 5w4 have Fi as tertiary while INTJ 4's--or 8's or 1's or whatever--have Fe (and are trying not to implode).

In truth I bet my credentials at least match his...I try to stay a bit quiet here. But there really are a bunch of experts trying to rethink a bunch of this--look at research on other models, where the type community might be dead right vs. myopic, and view everything with an open mind. Tough, but a good venture at this point in the history of the theory...

 

[Kalach]

In truth I bet my credentials at least match his...I try to stay a bit quiet here. But there really are a bunch of experts trying to rethink a bunch of this--look at research on other models, where the type community might be dead right vs. myopic, and view everything with an open mind. Tough, but a good venture at this point in the history of the theory...

It is a good venture. I keep thinking about from an INTJ perspective--could there really be extraverted feeling in a tertiary role? I'd instinctively say no, but that's just me drawing on only my experience of (a) being me, and (b) having bad experiences with (people I believe to be) dominant Fe users. But then I have to ask, what experience was that really? What did I identify when I decided "my tertiary is introverted!"? Damn good questions.

 

[the state i am in]

i guess you could get mired in the current research models, or you could go to cognitive science to figure out how the brain works.

 

[edcoaching]

It is a good venture. I keep thinking about from an INTJ perspective--could there really be extraverted feeling in a tertiary role? I'd instinctively say no, but that's just me drawing on only my experience of (a) being me, and (b) having bad experiences with (people I believe to be) dominant Fe users. But then I have to ask, what experience was that really? What did I identify when I decided "my tertiary is introverted!"? Damn good questions.

And I still harp back to how different a function might look in service to different dominants and auxiliaries. I think of working closely with an INTJ on a big planning project and...our interactions are very smooth, we can work rapidly through processes, our senses of humor are almost identical, but...the way we choose, our bases for exceptions, what we glean as important--the contrasts are really pretty funny. The biggest thing I see is the "Trust me" factor that comes from NF together...I remember an INTJ colleague in my days in the world of finance saying, "After all the work we've done together, I do trust you, but I still have no idea how your idea is going to save our butts by tomorrow..." It did, though. How we trust are guts comes from totally different rationale I guess...

 

[Kalach]

And I still harp back to how different a function might look in service to different dominants and auxiliaries.

Yep, there's definitely something there. I agree that most descriptions of functions apply only to a dominant function, and even then only to a pure dominant function. Function order is--he says, instinctively grasping at straws--vital for identity, but it also does something to the functions themselves--the whole "in service" thing.

I claimed elsewhere that lower level functions act as filters for higher level functions. Like, I have introverted intuition, but it is keyed to constructions around extraverted thinking, so at least at that level, it's different from INFJ intuition.

But I'm not sure "filter" is the right word. If it is, then the less conscious a function, the more likely it is to filter--ie. just be, in effect be a set of priorities that don't get so mulled over, they just are.

But how do they get to be there? Where did they come from? ARGH!

So anyway... the tertiary...

Tertiary Fe in an IxTJ... tertiary Te in an IxFJ... my mind has boggled.

I think of working closely with an INTJ on a big planning project and...our interactions are very smooth, we can work rapidly through processes, our senses of humor are almost identical, but...the way we choose, our bases for exceptions, what we glean as important--the contrasts are really pretty funny. The biggest thing I see is the "Trust me" factor that comes from NF together...I remember an INTJ colleague in my days in the world of finance saying, "After all the work we've done together, I do trust you, but I still have no idea how your idea is going to save our butts by tomorrow..." It did, though. How we trust are guts comes from totally different rationale I guess...

 

[the state i am in]

And I still harp back to how different a function might look in service to different dominants and auxiliaries. I think of working closely with an INTJ on a big planning project and...our interactions are very smooth, we can work rapidly through processes, our senses of humor are almost identical, but...the way we choose, our bases for exceptions, what we glean as important--the contrasts are really pretty funny. The biggest thing I see is the "Trust me" factor that comes from NF together...I remember an INTJ colleague in my days in the world of finance saying, "After all the work we've done together, I do trust you, but I still have no idea how your idea is going to save our butts by tomorrow..." It did, though. How we trust are guts comes from totally different rationale I guess...

why is the rationale totally different if you can be Ni Fe Te and intj can be Ni Te Fe? rather than the huge rationale conflict that occurs from similar perceptions with different judgment pairs? and which defines all of my experiences with enfps and intjs?

 

[edcoaching]

why is the rationale totally different if you can be Ni Fe Te and intj can be Ni Te Fe? rather than the huge rationale conflict that occurs from similar perceptions with different judgment pairs? and which defines all of my experiences with enfps and intjs?

I guess all of my best working experiences have been in pairs with INTJs and ENFPs...and I mean all of them. In my case those differences make things better.

 

[the state i am in]

I guess all of my best working experiences have been in pairs with INTJs and ENFPs...and I mean all of them. In my case those differences make things better.

i don't disagree that they are not only productive but also highly enjoyable.

i chalk up the success to N doms with a lot of wiggle room capable of communicating with me and vice versa even when i'm lackadaisical and not showing my work. i get the same quality of experience with entps, altho with greater natural transparency (bc of the rationale).

i was just curious as to how this way of relating to intjs that i share fits with the tertiary discussion, but alas- i feel like i am beating a dead horse.

 

[edcoaching]

i don't disagree that they are not only productive but also highly enjoyable.

i chalk up the success to N doms with a lot of wiggle room capable of communicating with me and vice versa even when i'm lackadaisical and not showing my work. i get the same quality of experience with entps, altho with greater natural transparency (bc of the rationale).

i was just curious as to how this way of relating to intjs that i share fits with the tertiary discussion, but alas- i feel like i am beating a dead horse.

Tertiary discussion...my point was that Fe in an INTJ doesn't really work like Fe in an INFJ even if you buy into the tertiary being in the opposite attitude as the dominant. And my Te vs. his Te in the case of the INTJ I was describing. It's particularly noticeable when it comes to analogies...the INTJ ones stay on track better...internally consistent and all that

 

[nightning]

I don't know edcoaching... from my personal experience, I found that I work better with ENTPs than with INTJs too. Like INTJs deal better with ENFPs. To me, it seems to support same direction dominant & tertiary as oppose to opposing direction.

If you look at other personality traits, you see that like-minded people get along better than people who are different. This appears time and time again in numerous psychology studies. So it seems to me that INTJs are more similar to ENFPs than INFJs. I'll chalk that up to dominant & tertiary function matching. Otherwise it doesn't make much sense that Ni Te Fe (INTJ) and Ni Fe Te (INFJ) aren't more similar than compared to Ne Fi Ti (ENFP).

Of course, I'm speaking as somebody with no professional MBTI experience and basing this on pure deduction.

 

[Moiety]

I personally don't think INTJs are more similar to ENFPs than INFJs.

 

[the state i am in]

I personally don't think INTJs are more similar to ENFPs than INFJs.

their rationale is, which is where this discussion has gone. but as far as their behavior and the way they relate to others- no, of course not. infjs and enfps crave human (emotional) connection far more intensely/continuously. they want to spread their inspiration and help others actualize the potential they (the nf) see in them.

 

[cascadeco]

Because doing so would admit the shortcomings of the current functions order theory and blow up the whole MBTI party.

Actually I'm tickled pink that edcoaching and others are saying some personality theorists are now saying stuff beyond the second function very well might not be set in stone and varies by individual based on nurture, experiences, etc. I've never bought the strict function order crap and it's never made sense to me; I've just kind of stopped my little rants on this forum about it because I've ceased to care. haha.

*smug* lol.

 

[Moiety]

their rationale is, which is where this discussion has gone.

What exactly do you mean?

 

[fusetah]

What exactly do you mean?

Function order preference

 

[Moiety]

Function order preference

Sharing two functions? By that token even ISTJs are more similar to ENFPs than INFJs. And they are polar opposites.

 

[edcoaching]

I don't know edcoaching... from my personal experience, I found that I work better with ENTPs than with INTJs too. Like INTJs deal better with ENFPs. To me, it seems to support same direction dominant & tertiary as oppose to opposing direction.

If you look at other personality traits, you see that like-minded people get along better than people who are different. This appears time and time again in numerous psychology studies. So it seems to me that INTJs are more similar to ENFPs than INFJs. I'll chalk that up to dominant & tertiary function matching. Otherwise it doesn't make much sense that Ni Te Fe (INTJ) and Ni Fe Te (INFJ) aren't more similar than compared to Ne Fi Ti (ENFP).

Of course, I'm speaking as somebody with no professional MBTI experience and basing this on pure deduction.

Actually the research going all the way back to Mary McCaulley (the psychologist who teamed with Myers in developing the actual MBTI) says that while it takes longer for people with differences in type preferences to figure out how to work together, type-diverse teams make better decisions than type-alike groups. Harder to have group-think take over reasoning...

And any two types can get along famously. Just all people can't make constructive use of differences

 

[the state i am in]

What exactly do you mean?

rationale = same judging functions.

and you mentioning duality makes sense, they are the same functions in reverse order. but the lack of perceptual interest makes communication more difficult and rely on rationale even more to bridge the gap explicitly rather than relying on unpsoken experience.

 

[entropie]

I'll say south southeast