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Why does Ti always go with Fe and Fi with Te?

sofmarhof

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This is a variation on bunch of Ti/Fe/Fi/Te posts there always are but I haven't seen this exact question asked, sorry if it has been.

Anyway, everybody uses and introverted and an extroverted judging function. But why? Actually I think my question is clearer if MBTI terminology is avoided so I'm going to try to do that—you might not like the way I define the functions but please interpret that as me expressing myself poorly rather than me understanding them poorly. And so the question is:

Why does logical thought motivated by no practical objective, pursued for its own sake, tend to go hand in hand with a flexible, relationship-based emotional attitude?

Why does an individualistic, resolute emotional outlook tend to pair up with goal-oriented logic?


That is, why does Ti always go with Fe and Fi with Te? But the answer's not "because everybody needs to use an introverted and an extroverted judging function", that's equivalent to just saying "because they do".

Since ExxPs and IxxJs have thinking and feeling as their second and third functions, they might the most useful examples for explaining this (as opposed to IxxPs and ExxJs, too unbalanced).
 

ajblaise

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No one will be able to give you any answer aside from "well, that's just how function order is set up".

But, the truth is, function order theory is jacked up, and doesn't neatly pan out that way in reality.

There are Ti users who use more Fi than Fe (actually, this is often the case), and there are Fi users who use more Ti than Te.
 

sofmarhof

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Well, you can't take it too seriously. I wouldn't necessarily say it's always always Ti/Fe or Fi/Te—but when I think about the people I know, it does usually work out that way.

But I think the question can be answered more satisfactorily.
 

Totenkindly

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Why does logical thought motivated by no practical objective, pursued for its own sake, tend to go hand in hand with a flexible, relationship-based emotional attitude?

Why does an individualistic, resolute emotional outlook tend to pair up with goal-oriented logic?


That is, why does Ti always go with Fe and Fi with Te? But the answer's not "because everybody needs to use an introverted and an extroverted judging function", that's equivalent to just saying "because they do".

No, it's actually NOT arbitrary -- from the theoretical POV.

While it still needs to be shown in practice, the theory assumes that capable healthy people prefer functions that can work together in sync and not conflict with each other. This is why it is assumed that the primary secondary pair has to cover extroverted/introverted terrain, as well as judging/perceiving function terrain. This way, the person is most "fully functional" because they've developed functions that allow them to best engage the world.

Why is the tertiary function the opposite cog function in the same judging/perceiving category and not something else? I'm going to guess that the inferior was actually determined first (the primary, secondary, and inferior functions seem the most obvious IRL), and the tertiary seemed to fit whatever data they had, reasonably, and was also theoretically the "most sense." (Sort of like the sequence problems you find on an IQ test -- what's the "missing symbol"?).

It also gets assigned an opposing I/E preference in order to theoretically "fill the niche" that the person would have left uncovered by their secondary.

Since the theory seemed to be purposefully balanced (and thus theoretical, rather than drawn entirely from exact data), this is how I see the theory "balancing itself." It's like getting algebra problems and figuring out what missing equation will make everything work... but of course, that doesn't mean it reflects reality.
 

Oaky

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It is important as a balance. Something must always restrict the other. If Te is to do something, there must be an opposing force to level it to a reasonable degree which is of course Fi. It is like a balance on a scale where there is one side and another opposing side for the same thing. If Te is on one side and no Fi is on the other you have the Te part of the scale falling down to the ultimate bottom in which case someone would most likely have a psychological disorder... Fe will not work in the same way Fi does for Te so it does not go on the same scale HOWEVER there is another scale for a totally different aspect of personality for Te and Fe indicating what you are.

Same thing could be said for Ti and Fe.
 

sofmarhof

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Jennifer: so are you saying that Fi and Ti necessarily contradict/conflict with each other? And that Ti and Te do the same? But is there a less process-of-elimination answer?

I suppose I'm looking for how it works as much as why, that's why I was pushing for avoiding MBTI terminology.
 

Andy

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I think the Fe/Ti and Fi/Te sets are united by an underlying attitude that is the same in each case. I also believe this for Si/Ne and Se/Ni,.

I think Fe/Ti are unified because they are both "global" decision making processes. Ti wants to fit everything together into a logical, self consistent whole. Opinions are greately shaped by what already exists. If something doesn't fit the picture, than this a point of concern.

Fe tries to fit people/things together to see how they fit into the larger social picture. Opinions are greately shaped by the prevailing needs and concerns of society. That doesn't mean Fe types are necesarily conformists (though they can be). They may well choice to go against everything there society believes in, perhaps to demonstrate the benefits that might be available if more people do the same, or because they are feeling rebelious and thus us society at large to define what they are not .

Fi/Te is "centralised". Decisions are made according to some guiding principal that stands outside other concerns. In the case of Te that principal is completing the objective, whatever that might be. Decisions are made according to how they help meet that objective.

For Fi the centralised principal is the persons own feelings/beliefs. Decisions are made in accordance to how they fit into those personal factors.

I can share my thoughts on the percieving functions as well, if anyone is interested.
 

Totenkindly

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Jennifer: so are you saying that Fi and Ti necessarily contradict/conflict with each other? And that Ti and Te do the same? But is there a less process-of-elimination answer?

I suppose I'm looking for how it works as much as why, that's why I was pushing for avoiding MBTI terminology.

RagiK sensed it too -- stable healthy people are not imbalanced and do not evolve toward imbalance (we want stability), and a different setup would create more [potential for] imbalance.

Yes, Fi and Ti contradict each other... although less and less, the more the Fi valueset matches the Ti valueset. Same thing for Fe and Te.

This is also why Fi is assigned "demon" slot for Ti and vice versa, etc. (The 8th position.) There is an immediate inherent conflict between the personal and the impersonal, lessened by how much the valuesets happen to be similar... but they use different priorities to draw conclusions. They listen to different voices. Either you listen to your internal values or you take a more impersonal approach. You can't really do both at once, and people tend to favor one over the other (either you TRUST that inner voice -- Fi -- or you try to detach from it in order to "keep your logic clear" -- Ti).

Te and Fe can sometimes coexist a bit better, I think; but often there is a difference between how an adminstrator will approach an organization (Te) vs how Human Resources will approach it. The admin is thinking about the group as a whole in terms of practical output and functionality and people can be more expendable. Fe is far more concerned with the rights of the individual as part of the overall collective, regardless of the person's efficiency and/or more detached priorities. (Te: "They aren't a good skills fit, they aren't producing enough, etc." Fe: "You can't fire them, you have obligations to them as people" as a possible response.) The thing here is that, again, the priority is different, and when priorities differ, cog functions comes into conflict.

It's easy for the introverted/extroverted opposites of a judging or perceiving pair to work together than for the non-opposites.

... but this is just theory. In real life, we do see people develop cog functions in non-theory-specified ways, and sometimes we do see people build up similar pairs (such as Ti+Te, or Fi+Fe). But usually one dominates... because there is still the "direction" (intro/extro) that can come into conflict, because of differing scope.

It seems easiest for Ti/Fe and Fi/Te to work together because they conflict the least with each other from a theory POV. They can still both honor their own priorities the easiest, and even help each other work in tandem.

..... EDIT: Andy raises some interesting points. Sure, please talk about the perceiving functions. :)
 

BlackCat

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Ti and Fe, along with the other function pairings, are two parts of a whole. Fe and Ti feed each other as well. Same with the other function pairings. Unfortunately the dominant and inferior are pretty off balance in people usually, so the inferior can't really feed the dominant. The tertiary and auxillary however do a lot of work with each other in a person usually for personal growth.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that we are going with a 4 function theory. There are 4 function types- Ji, Je, Pi, and Pe. These are all expressed in different ways, I'm sure you can see very distinct differences in IPs, IJs, EPs, and EJs. That's what I'm talking about. The 4 function types perform a specific type of cognition that everyone does to some degree, some do some more, some do some less. That's where we have the first and last letters.
 

VagrantFarce

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that's equivalent to just saying "because they do".

Sometimes that's all the answer you need. :devil: At the end of the day this is all based on observation, hindsight and anecdote - you won't find the answer within this system, since it doesn't seek to explain everything. :) You'll have to find yourself a proper psychology topic to figure out why people are the way they are.

If you really want the theoretical answer, though - they balance each other out. Consider if each function existed within a vacuum, without the other function to balance things out:

  • Ti: Assessing everything in terms of logical coherence and first-hand understanding, without ever considering the effect it has on one's social standing.
  • Fi: Assessing everything in terms of the implicit emotional needs it fulfills, without ever considering its objective, quantifiable reliability.
  • Fe: Assessing everything in terms of how it defines a social relationship, without ever considering its logical coherence or what first-hand understanding suggests.
  • Te: Assessing everything in terms of how it reliably and objectively quantifies something, without ever considering its effect on emotional needs.
Admittedly crude, but hopefully you get my point.
 

Andy

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I think that Si/Ne are "discrete" percieving functions. That is, they take data and break it up into smaller chunks for storage. Si focuses on what is seen as solid and reliable, and builds up a collections of facts and principals which are seen as sound. It forms a number of knowledge nodes, if you like. Ne then draws in the links between them, forming a spider web of interconnected facts. Ne is still a discrete function because its links are well defined(A links to B,C, F and H...) even if there can be an aweful lot of them.

Se/Ni are "continous" percieving functions. The direct sensory input from Se is completely raw and is processed whole. Sights, sounds, smells and the like are utilised in whatever form they are recieved in order to learn about the object of study.

To Ni, meaning is flexible. The interpretation of something canchange with nothing more than a different perception, and in many ways both are correct. With a rather wordless character, Ni will often work with concepts and ideas that the user finds hard to express in formalised words until the processing is complete. As Se works in raws sensory experience, Ni utilises raw thoughts.

Does any of this make sesnse to people?
 

Udog

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There are Ti users who use more Fi than Fe (actually, this is often the case), and there are Fi users who use more Ti than Te.

The order talks about the role the function plays, not the strength or how often it is used.
 

TopherRed

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I gather, I gather.
 

Grace

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I personally don't feel like I use much Ti. Both Te and Fi come before Ti.
 

nanook

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"Why does Ti always go with Fe and Fi with Te?"

actually this relationship exists mostly in J-doms.
and the opposite J is their shadow.

so you can say that it "comes along with" the opposite J and you can say that it "goes against" the opposite J.

and "why" is a complex question. because god wanted it to be this way? because it has been observed and was written down?

but it's not surprising that the shadow works against "you", is it?

and i don't think it makes sense to define a shadow as something entirely static.
it responds to you. if you are P-dom and use your secondary J a lot, your shadow might just respond with your opposite J a lot.

the shadow has all the possibilities, but it has probabilities as well.

in the big picture of your live, your decisions are created by your dominant function and they are kept in between boundaries by the opposite of your dominant function.

and why is it so easy to observe the J-J conflict?

because J functions can be more easily identified via theory of mind, if communication is the object ob observation. they corrupt interpretations and leave an obvious handwriting. the P functions can be identified by actions, readiness and certain skills - factors that are comparably elusive in communication.

is there a necessary conflict?

not in theoretical utopia.

don't confuse functions with their contents or conditioning:
the developmental learning task of every function is to work together not against other functions.

example: if you are Fe-dom or Fe-secondary:

to develop your shadow-Fi you must access Fe consciously, understand what it does and why, then stop Fe from discriminating Fi. then Fi will start to talk to you and say what it wants.

a matter of adjusting your understanding and attitudes and forgiving and giving up specific attachments to ideas or preferences.

this is true for the opposites of introversion in the same functions. (Ti vs Te, Se vs Si, ....)

----

i don't see a hard opposition between introversion of one function and extroversion of the other function. (Ti vs Fe, Te vs Fi, Se vs Ni, Ne vs Si)

this is, i believe, why those shadow qualities become so obvious.

a Ti-dom is unable to suppress his Fe because he does not even recognize it. so the Fe shadow becomes a mighty live force. but it has very odd characteristics, compared to the Fe of an enfj, because it's not flexibly concerned with the immediate situations but with some general live theme, like a code of honor of a soldier for example. so Ti-doms are enslaved by Fe and any conscious conflict with Fe is a result of this, not the origin, but more often there is no conflict and Ti-dom are stubbornly identified with their Fe attitudes, similarly to how someone "is identified with an offender" in a stockholm syndrom.

likewise the Ni-dom is unable to suppress Se, so Se becomes a mighty active ruler of the Ni-dom's live theme. as such it's enslaving not empowering. its the voice of paranoia. dooms-day dreams.

so this kind of conflict is hardened by conditioning at it needs some kind of therapy in the broadest sense of the world to ease the conflict.

---

but Ni-dominance can suppress Ne, so the lack of Ne becomes a dominant factor in live.
and Ti can suppress Te so the lack of Te can become a dominant factor in live.
so this is a hard and direct conflict (Ni vs Ne, Ti vs Te, Se vs Si, ...) which is often conscious.
but i believe such conflict can naturally be transcended by sort of loosing yourself in some kind of demanding activity.
 

thisGuy

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why does Ne always go with Ti and Ni with Te

why cant we have NeTe
 

ajblaise

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The order talks about the role the function plays, not the strength or how often it is used.

The Dominant function is supposed to be the strongest and most important, according to Jung. And the three below are used less and less.

You don't get how the Dominant function is stronger than the Inferior function?
 
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