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Ti, Te and "Systems"

Poki

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Maybe a Te user would take or leave the theory as it is, rather than try to refine it as a Ti user would.




The point is that this Te description is inaccurate in the first place. The only standard that Te users seem to be placing on the system is that it should match reality. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Yes, because Te wants to use it for a goal and if doesnt they cant. Ti on the other hand can mold the system and give and take and play with it as the its not a tool in the same sense as it is to Te.

Te wants a wrench to turn a nut, Ti says screw it, I can use pliers as long as while I turn it it does not slip. If you tell a Te to use pliers on a nut you better be prepared to hear why it wont work.

edit: now when you bring in Fi, Fi will say, I feel like pliers may work, so it goes against Te. Or a Te user brought donw to Fi, "this will frickin work, comon, squeeze harder, crap, stripped the head, where my drill(pliers go flying across room)" Now Ti will be "ok head is stripping, have nothing else, lets try until its stripped then grab a drill" :yim_rolling_on_the_
 

Jaguar

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My point is that Fi/Te users tend to regard "systems" as external, and so see things like the MBTI - a system that they interpret as something thattries to tell you how to think, feel and behave - as limiting and arbitrary.

Once again, your post is bollocks.
It is you telling people how they think. Not MBTI.
 

simulatedworld

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Once again, your post is bollocks.
It is you telling people how they think. Not MBTI.

Would you mind briefly summarizing your objections to MBTI/typology for us?
 

FDG

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Yes, because Te wants to use it for a goal and if doesnt they cant. Ti on the other hand can mold the system and give and take and play with it as the its not a tool in the same sense as it is to Te.

Te wants a wrench to turn a nut, Ti says screw it, I can use pliers as long as while I turn it it does not slip. If you tell a Te to use pliers on a nut you better be prepared to hear why it wont work.

Ehhhh forgive me but that's just being dumb, it doesn't have much to do with our main function...
 
G

garbage

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The categories are constantly updated and refined to match reality more closely. Every time new information comes up that contradicts the old understanding, the system is amended to reflect it.

That's what this whole forum is for--discussing and refining the categories as we continue to study their relationship to reality..

Right. That's what should be going on, and it seems that the OP is doing so.

So which part of what BlackCat stated implies that Te-users are holding the descriptions in the OP to inappropriate standards? Because that is the only standard that he implicitly noted.
 

Poki

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Ehhhh forgive me but that's just being dumb, it doesn't have much to do with our main function...

yeah, sorry, I am stereotyping.
 

Totenkindly

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Someone doesn't know what Introverted Judgement illustrates. ;)

So you posted a potential definition of Te, for consumption and so that it can be corrected by others. And immediately Te people start fighting/shoving back about what your intentions were.

...That part, at least, matches your theory.

I still do feel a bit muddled, though, on exactly what Te complaints would be about MBTI, or whether your concept is accurate.
 

VagrantFarce

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I'm getting the feeling this thread is going to turn into another fine illustration of how Ji/Pe and Pi/Je types don't think the same way. :D

In which case, I apologize in advance. :hi:
 

simulatedworld

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Right. That's what should be going on, and it seems that the OP is doing so.

So which part of what BlackCat stated implies that Te-users are holding the descriptions in the OP to inappropriate standards? Because that is the only standard that he implicitly noted.

Nothing that he said implies this; it's the actions of Te users that constantly imply this.

They constantly whine that it doesn't reflect reality, but that's because they're expecting more accuracy out of such a system than it could reasonably provide. It's inherent in the Te mindset that anything is worthless without x degree of empirical accuracy (decided arbitrarily by the Te user), so they don't buy the whole "it's constantly shifting to better reflect reality" thing.

They want a precise, consistent, empirical measurement that can be tested and proven objectively, and they consider anything that can't live up to this standard to be essentially worthless. They hold MBTI/other typology systems to this standard despite the fact that such systems don't purport to meet it.


I don't summarize the obvious.

Evidently it's not obvious to everyone, since, as you've just informed us, our understanding of the Te mindset is completely wrong.

So why don't you explain, firsthand from a Te perspective, what is wrong with MBTI and similar typology systems?
 

Poki

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Nothing that he said implies this; it's the actions of Te users that constantly imply this.

They constantly whine that it doesn't reflect reality, but that's because they're expecting more accuracy out of such a system than it could reasonably provide. It's inherent in the Te mindset that anything is worthless without x degree of empirical accuracy (decided arbitrarily by the Te user), so they don't buy the whole "it's constantly shifting to better reflect reality" thing.

They want a precise, consistent, empirical measurement that can be tested and proven objectively, and they consider anything that can't live up to this standard to be essentially worthless. They hold MBTI/other typology systems to this standard despite the fact that such systems don't purport to meet it.

And the fact they hold it worthless means they wont invest the time to make it meet reality.
 

the state i am in

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the relationship to theory and idea systems in general is just as relevant to this discussion. i find Ti types have more invested in definite concepts and meanings that focus on systemic integrity rather than on what they can accomplish. they try to attain a perfect objective truth, whereas Te doesn't focus on truth in-so-much as it focuses on action. there is no big truth concept, apart from what Fi deems subjectively true (tho they're often not aware to the degree this silently pulls them in one direction).

i think Ni and Ti have an interesting relationship (of course i do, i'm an infj 5). Ni also focuses on systemic relationship but it is far more vague, hazy, and undefined. yet it is so densely associated that when it blends all the associations into one single 3-dimensional picture, if checks a lot of past information and context into that, so there is a ton of feedbacking. which creates a sort of integrity, tho without any Ti solidity and Fe context it is wildly projecting and pretty much insane.

i think the i functions generally do the feedbacking. i still don't understand how Fi works as a reasoning process, apart that is has tons of feedback. i can't articulate why some Fi seems so advanced, perceptive, and well-developed, and some seems incapable of abstraction, expansion, synthesis beyond hot-stove = burning = bad.

for me, Ti is such a breath of fresh air. strong Ti is so precise and specific and detailed within the system it is analyzing. it sees individual relationships and develops them into something with great organization.

i still don't understand Te, but i'm starting to think i get how aristotle, and kant, and habermas all fit together in the ntj group. the Te categories ARE tightly put together and well-organized and speak to a specific reality that inspires philosophical thinking for a damn good reason. the balance of Ni and Te in ntj is interesting, it's difficult to cross that barrier of s and n and still have the role of Ti or Te be the same. but with Te you'll always find some Fi band-aids (as far as pure logic is concerned), which may or may not be a problem to you depending on your own values.
 

Jaguar

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Evidently it's not obvious to everyone, since, as you've just informed us, our understanding of the Te mindset is completely wrong.

So why don't you explain, firsthand from a Te perspective, what is wrong with MBTI and similar typology systems?


Te perspective. As if Te operates all by itself.
Can you possibly dig a larger hole for yourself? :D
 

Poki

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Te perspective. As if Te operates all by itself.
Can you possibly dig a larger hole for yourself? :D

Havnt you ever dug a large hole just for fun? My dog fell in one I dug before, so you may want to watch who is around when you dig these holes as they are bound to fall in.
 

simulatedworld

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Te perspective. As if Te operates all by itself.
Can you possibly dig a larger hole for yourself? :D

You're being deliberately obtuse. Explain from your perspective, then, what is the matter with MBTI/typology systems?
 

Totenkindly

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Te perspective. As if Te operates all by itself.
Can you possibly dig a larger hole for yourself? :D

aw, just set it up like an assumptive case ... i.e., "let Pi = Xi" and then go to town!

PS. I'm sure Sim can dig a deeper hole for himself. I believe in him!

You're being deliberately obtuse. Explain from your perspective, then, what is the matter with MBTI/typology systems?

Yup. My faith is vindicated. :whistling:
 

Poki

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aw, just set it up like an assumptive case ... i.e., "let Pi = Xi" and then go to town!

PS. I'm sure Sim can dig a deeper hole for himself. I believe in him!



Yup. My faith is vindicated. :whistling:

Pi=Xi is what my whole world is made of. My dog seriously fell in a deep hole I dug but I meant what I said in a deeper N type of way. Are they not the same concept which makes them equal:thinking:
 

Totenkindly

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Pi=Xi is what my whole world is made of. My dog seriously fell in a deep hole I dug but I meant what I said in a deeper N type of way. Are they not the same concept which makes them equal:thinking:

uhhhh.....Hi, I'm DORI! Who are you? :doh:
 

Poki

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uhhhh.....Hi, I'm DORI! Who are you? :doh:

No matter how much you want it, I are not You.

... I actually listen to each and every response, just get bored between them waiting for something to respond to.
 
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