Baffled by Fi

[entropie]

I'ld like to let my good friend Günther answer your question LL:

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAohH3I01l0"].[/YOUTUBE]

 

[VagrantFarce]

Hmm, could be.

See, when I feel insecure, I want to make everyone ELSE happy because I think somehow that will bring ME happiness and security/stability. At the end of the day, if someone asks me, "What do YOU want?" or "How do YOU feel?" I just think, "Uhhh, uhhh, uh, well, um, yeah, I really, well, damn, I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WANT. YOU CHOOSE!" lol Awful. I don't do it AS MUCH anymore, but I used to be REALLY BAD at that.

Even worse, at work (if I feel uncomfy) I'll be 'everyone's darling' trying to do everything right for everyone until I'm so worn out that I just wanna.....GARHHHHHHHHHH. I'll wear myself out working like a dog. And THEN if I DON'T get feedback, that'll drive me crazy because I'll assume negative feedback is no feedback, and I'll do even MORE STUFF. Ugh. Someone slap me. And then I'll get even more organized and even more pedantic and even more anal-retentive.

This is Extraverted Feeling! "It makes me happy to make you happy!" No wonder you don't "get" Fi, because it's not where your emotional barometer emerges from!

ExFJ

Ahahahahaha, you've almost cracked the code LL!

 

[PeaceBaby]

But it makes me happy to make you happy too ... if an Fi user has the value that the feelings of other people are as or more important than their own, they would behave similarly.

I think if Fe usage felt natural to LL, she would get satisfaction and receive a certain measure of energy back at meeting the group needs. But that doesn't seem to be the case. So I would posit that Fi is fueling that external desire to please.

 

[Seymour]

But it makes me happy to make you happy too ... if an Fi user has the value that the feelings of other people are as or more important than their own, they would behave similarly.

I think if Fe usage felt natural to LL, she would feel satisfaction and get a certain measure of energy back at meeting the group needs. But that doesn't seem to be the case. So I would posit that Fi is fueling that external desire to please.

I agree... I was explicitly raised with that value, and internalized it well. Took a while to gain a healthier balance and acknowledge my own needs as important (more important in some respects, since I'm the one responsible for taking care of myself).

 

[PeaceBaby]

I agree... I was explicitly raised with that value, and internalized it well. Took a while to gain a healthier balance and acknowledge my own needs as important (more important in some respects, since I'm the one responsible for taking care of myself).

Yes, I feel similarly. Internalized it almost too well ...

Even at this point in my life, I still don't take care of myself as well as I should.

Since we have moved, a part of me is hesitant to get involved in new groups because I can too easily fall into a particular role, one where I take on responsibility for group harmony and balance. Sensing the needs of others is hard when one doesn't have a good solid boundary line of energy in vs energy out. I can thus swing out of balance, feeling like I "should" be doing this task vs wanting to do it.

 

[VagrantFarce]

But it makes me happy to make you happy too ... if an Fi user has the value that the feelings of other people are as or more important than their own, they would behave similarly.

I think if Fe usage felt natural to LL, she would feel satisfaction and get a certain measure of energy back at meeting the group needs. But that doesn't seem to be the case. So I would posit that Fi is fueling that external desire to please.

Well, it would only feel satisfying if it was an auxillary function, and she's clearly an extravert - dominant Fe types have to make other people happy, because they're easily the most emotionally vicarious of all the types - they take on the feelings and mindsets of others better than anyone else. It's almost like a survival instinct - I have to make everyone else happy by working as hard as I can, because I feel so responsible for it! In these cases, everything is externalised, in a very unhealthy and unbalanced way - resulting in the sort of frustration that LL was talking about.

A Dominant-Fe type won't find true solace or satisfaction until they:

• ESFJ: Consider what is important, and vanguard/preserve it against the changing tides (Auxillary-Si)
• ENFJ: Consider introducing other possibilities to the existing framework, possibilities that are not suggestible by direct observation (Auxillary-Ni)

Or so the theory states.

 

[Amargith]

Both F-functions can cause this behavior. I myself have also been taught that other peoples feelings are important, more important than my own and it is part of my set of values aswell, part of my Fi. So this peace of info isn't really enough to determine Fe or Fe, I'm afraid.

 

[Eric B]

She did say it was when she was feeling insecure, so that could be some sort of shadow reaction. (which sometimes do come out in positive form like that).

 

[VagrantFarce]

Both F-functions can cause this behavior. I myself have also been taught that other peoples feelings are important, more important than my own and it is part of my set of values aswell, part of my Fi. So this peace of info isn't really enough to determine Fe or Fe, I'm afraid.

But it is, because it's all external - "I feel insecure...wait a minute, their feelings are hurt, I need to work harder and take more responsibility for them! That will fix all of this! Wait, why isn't it working? Why aren't I feeling any better? I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do, and more! Maybe if I just keep moving, keep doing stuff in the external world, I'll feel better...". It's a classic case of the vicious Dominant-Fe cycle!

 

[onemoretime]

I've finally figured out Fi. It's amazing, really.

It's nothing but Ti in reverse.

 

[VagrantFarce]

I've finally figured out Fi. It's amazing, really.

It's nothing but Ti in reverse.

 

[Amargith]

But it is, because it's all external - "I feel insecure...wait a minute, their feelings are hurt, I need to work harder and take more responsibility for them! That will fix all of this! Wait, why isn't it working? Why aren't I feeling any better? I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do, and more! Maybe if I just keep moving, keep doing stuff in the external world, I'll feel better...". It's a classic case of the vicious Dominant-Fe cycle!

Unless you're prepared to call me FeNi then as well, I'd say NeFi is just as capable of that. I spent years in that vicious loop. It's what happens when Ne runs rampant collecting information, but Fi doesn't have enough experience/background/ a baseline to judge things on. And your Fi is sensitive, noticing and picking up all those emotions that people are tossing at you and you keep wondering why they're doing that. Why they're emotionally poluting like that, coz hey, they wouldnt' be doing that if there wasn't a reason. And automatically, since they sometimes aim those emotions at you, you assume it must be something that you're doing wrong. Add to that that Fe is taught as a social norm and you're supposed to be nice to others, and voila, the care for others and their emotions gets together with your need for harmony to form an endless and exhausting mission of appeasing others, never realizing that that just aint your job, and it's not your fault or your failure when that doesn't work out.

 

[VagrantFarce]

Unless you're prepared to call me FeNi then as well, I'd say NeFi is just as capable of that.

Well if it confirms what I think and helps me be right, YES DAMMIT

I also took into consideration LL's self-described bafflement of looking inside oneself for any sort of "emotional guidance". Instead she talks a lot about "inner principles" and she admires her husband as someone who can "withstand storms"...that sounds an awful lot like Auxillary-Si to me - remaining honourable to what you know in your gut is important, and not getting swept up in the tide (in other words, avoiding the easy, safe allure of Tertiary-Ne).

 

[PeaceBaby]

If your primary lens is Fi you wouldn't necessarily understand what it means to look inside because you do it all the time naturally.

Aux Si belongs to the INFP world too ... Edit - WHOOPS, programming and foruming don't always mix ...

 

[VagrantFarce]

Aux Si belongs to the INFP world too ... :O

INxPs have Tertiary-Si, veeeeerrrryyyy different

And let's not be too silly, LL's probably the most extraverted person on this forum by a wide margin.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Whoopsy read that wrong ... I still say LL is ENFP.

But Aux Si could lead LL back to ESTJ too!

 

[Laurie]

LL, really, look around on this forum and see what type has what hang ups.

It's interesting, isn't it! And when people insist they don't have those hangups that are pretty universal for their type.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

It seems most people don't want to describe it beyond something securely vague. If you do try to be precise about it, you'll be undoubtedly taken to task by oh-so many people that want to show you how you're wrong. So I can see how an onlooker would be baffled by Fi.

But wait, did I not just describe all processes on this forum?

 

[onemoretime]

I've finally figured out Fi. It's amazing, really.

It's nothing but Ti in reverse.

To explain:

Ti starts from objective first principles... but subjectively valuates each of those principles. For example, I consider social stability and cohesion to be the basis for any human society, so my logical determinations for social strategies are going to stem from this key conceptualization. Someone who considers voluntary affiliation to be that sort of basis will come to completely different determinations, though these may still logically connect. These determinations will arise from external logical patterns and connections, but they still relate to one another based on a prioritization that stems from theoretically subjective decisions (though Ti users will argue you to death on why their decision is the objectively true one... hint, guys - you're wrong, I'm right, deal with it). We argue these things to death because Fe desperately wants to get others to agree with us.

Fi does the opposite. It starts from the objective conclusion (manifested in several ways, for example, in the relative intelligence of Fi users, and in the "Fi mirroring" many people point out), and then winnows its way to the subjective valuation of each of these. The prioritization hierarchy (aka the tert/inf Te) becomes the endpoint of the Fi judging process, rather than the start of it like Ti. Since we're all human, and go through several of the same experiences, many of these valuations will converge in most xxFPs. However, there's no particular reason they have to, and they often do not.

The thing is, both of these have an emotive and non-affective component to them. The valuation/prioritization is the emotional part. This is demonstrated by the way you genuinely do evoke emotions from a Ti user - attack that person's core logic. "Your conclusions are idiotic" won't do a thing, because we'll simply assume the other person's stupid; however, "your points aren't even worth considering" will get a rise, only because the initial valuation principle will suffer from invalidation.

Notice where I'm getting to? This is exactly the same sort of reaction Ti users complain of about Fi users when their personal values are offended! Likewise, Fi users do have a non-affective aspect of their judging function - this is how they dauntlessly face all aspects of the world in the first place. Fi seeks these objective conclusions in the first place, without any regard to personal impact. It wants to universalize its valuation/prioritization through experience in much the same way Ti wants to universalize its possible range of conclusion through logical analysis.

They're really two sides of the same coin, one edge being "subjective" and the other "objective".

 

[aeon]

Fi is a cognitive function that judges this vs. that, based on reference to an internally-derived hierarchy of values defined from a people-based perspective and focus.

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You can flip internal/external and/or people/logic in the above statement to get summations of Fe, Ti, and Te.


cheers,
Ian