Baffled by Fi

[SillySapienne]

Some of my previous thoughts on Fi...

I believe that Fi is all about intro and intraspecting, or being emotionally intelligent, if you will.

Fi is about thinking about feelings, understanding and dealing with them, at least, I think.

It is almost like a universal self, like my empathy and Fi are inextricably connected. It is the voice of the self, but not a selfish self, if that makes sense.

Fi is entirely lacking of pretension, it is what it is, and it accepts how it is, never trying to be what it is not.

Ever since I was a young girl I have been interested in people, and how their feelings seemed to affect their words and actions. And since I was a child I've been formulating theories about people and human behavior. I had no idea this had to do with Fi

I was raised in a remarkably and colorfully dysfunctional family, (lol, who hasn't though, really ), and since a young age have put an immense amount of value in my sense of self and identity, I could always trust myself, but other people could, and did, sometimes act in erratic, self-motivated ways that needed to be set apart, contained, observed and noted. Why was that person doing that, why was I feeling this, who is that, who am I , why is that, why am I, were and are questions that I often consciously or subconsciously, ask/ed.

I am constantly checking in with myself, and relating my feelings, my current circumstance(s) with the me-o-meter. It is like, even if I decide to be free and let go, I have to understand why I am letting go, and why that is ok, whenever I have acted out poorly, I must sit and reflect as to *why* I acted in such a way. When I pursue a goal, all along the way, I must constantly re-check myself and the path that I have "chosen" to see if it is in fact the right path. (Thus far my life has been very zig-zaggy. ).

But you are right about Fi really being something internally and self based. I can be in a room full of people who are acting or preaching things I strongly feel/believe to be wrong and I will go against the current, speak up for myself, and more than ever clutch to the source of strength that myself has provided, so as to not sink into the crowd/mob.

Fi is merely a *way* to apprehend Universal Truth.

Fi isn't simply an emotional product, it is an implicitly cognitive-emotional product very similar to, and perhaps even a subset of, intuition, or intuitive thought.

Fi is a subconscious grasping of essential parts, it is the process of synthesizing wholes and meaning.

Fi is NOT fleeting, it is impenetrable and it is anchored.

I have thought wrong, but I have never *known* wrongly and this knowing is Fi infused.

Gah, I just don't know how to explain it, and I apologize for that. But Fi is not analogous to simply feeling, such as one feeling anger, or sorrow, ugh, HELL NO, it's deeper and more complex than that.

Here, my signature kind of exemplifies how I experience Fi.

"A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

When I think about justice I think about honesty, I think about truth.

Fairness is the opposite of deception.

I care about sincerity, I care about perceiving the most accurate reality.

I am a human being, human beings are fallible creatures, I know that life can be unsettling, that sometimes, the truth hurts, but every night I have to sleep with myself, and when push comes to shove all I really have is myself so to and with myself I'll stay and stand true.

The biggest travesty therefore would be me living a life separate from myself, and lies separate us, and secrets separate us, and honesty is the only glue that helps us connect to ourselves, to each other and to the world in which we live.

I fear detachment. I fear that gravitational pull to just be selfish. Life is not a competition, the realest conflict we have is internal, to understand ourselves in order to then be understood.

 

[Jaguar]

I think you are responding in the same level of extreme you're complaining about.

I'm pleased you actually noticed satire. I'll be happy to kick it up a few notches.

Whether or not I happen to agree with Lenore on these points, we're discussing more underlying broad amorphous trends/generalities, attitudes and ways of thinking

I'll grab my tribal spear just so I can discuss "amorphous trends," with Jennifery Walker.

How many times have I heard, "Well, the pastor told me to do it this way"

Thankfully, you and I live in very different worlds.
I have never met a person in my entire life who has said such a thing.
Anyone I have ever known has the ablity to think for themselves.

Individual values are really shunned for the group values. There is an over-identification of self with the group. What else should this style of thinking be called? (Edit: Ironically, I've just reread your mocking examples... and I kid you not, a lot of the religious people I know WILL and feel they MUST reference the group for example #2... and there's even a known minority that will take things to the extreme you mention in example #1. And these aren't robots! They're real people, and some of them really nice, kind, giving people who function perfectly well in society and raise stable families.)

You are talking about religious extremes, Jen. It is also learned behavior that can be hammered into a kid's head so hard they don't know whether to shit or go blind.
By preferring Fe, it in no way suggests users will automatically be religious extremists or for that matter even be religious.
Continuing to ignore the fact that function preferences do not lead to predictable behavior is getting so insidious around here,
it's no different than a malignant tumor which refuses to halt its growth.

.. and yet the same people also have absorbed these values and/or share these values on an individual basis and thus help promote/pass along these values as their own. I'm not sure where the distinction is eventually, because eventually the persona of the community becomes the persona of the individual.

Just because the town of Scooby Doo, Alabama does X doesn't mean the entire state of Alabama does X.

Was there ever an individual? Would the persona exist without the community having driven it, or would the individual have expressed those values anyway? In any case, the things the community values become the things that resonate within the individual, and the things the community hates become the things that repulse the individual.

You don't really think I'm this far down in your post and don't know who, or what, you are really talking about do you?
When you are ready to leave your extraordinary personal issues on the back burner, let me know.

Honestly, all these cognitive function stuff is just a way to deconstruct a complex experience... it just focuses on particular issues and hopefully creates an important distinction that leads to some sort of understanding.

Interesting. I see it as a way to conveniently avoid dealing with the very thing you speak of.
Rather than having to personally invest yourself, you can now stand back and deal with no one.
You can sit alone in your room and look at a theoretical framework while thinking X is true of Bob or Betty,
and avoid having to deal with any real issues with them at all.

The only real understanding we can have with our fellow man is when we drop the mask.
For some, every day is Halloween.

Trick or treat.

 

[VagrantFarce]

You've really got this whole "throw the baby out with the bathwater" technique down pat, don't you Jag? God forbid you actually end up making an effort to understand another person's point of view and contribute something they find constructive; you'd rather be callously de-constructive and contribute nothing more than an utterly arrogant and assumptive dis-mission of what they're trying to do. :hi:

 

[Jaguar]

You've really got this whole "throw the baby out with the bathwater" technique down pat, don't you Jag? God forbid you actually end up making an effort to understand another person's point of view and contribute something they find constructive; you'd rather be callously de-constructive and contribute nothing more than an utterly arrogant and assumptive dis-mission of what they're trying to do. :hi:

Edit: The more time I spend here, the NF's continue to show me they are smarter than INTPs.
They get the message in my posts but it goes right over your head, Vagrant.
Congrats for striking out again. :hi:

 

[Totenkindly]

I'll grab my tribal spear just so I can discuss "amorphous trends," with Jennifery Walker.

I don't get the reference. Walker who?
Oh, SOLITARY Walker. Duh.

...yeah, whatever.

Thankfully, you and I live in very different worlds.
I have never met a person in my entire life who has said such a thing.
Anyone I have ever known has the ablity to think for themselves.

Then you're actually pretty fortunate.
It's pretty much the STANDARD view in my environment throughout my life.
I'm in my 40's and still fighting my way out.

You are talking about religious extremes, Jen. It is also learned behavior that can be hammered into a kid's head so hard they don't know whether to shit or go blind.
By preferring Fe, it in no way suggests users will automatically be religious extremists or for that matter even be religious.

I think that was understood, wasn't it?
Why are you wasting time making a point that wasn't under debate?

Continuing to ignore the fact that function preferences do not lead to predictable behavior is getting so insidious around here, it's no different than a malignant tumor which refuses to halt its growth.

Sort of like misrepresenting other people's viewpoints?

Just because the town of Scooby Doo, Alabama does X doesn't mean the entire state of Alabama does X.

Which is why I've appreciated hearing about other POVs on this forum. It's been sort of an eye-opener to me to hear of environs where perhaps this is not the case and I've actually been actively reading and working out where my view needs to be modified over the last half year or so.

However, it doesn't negate that a large chunk of the culture I've experienced (all over the eastern seaboard, not just in central PA) and within the national writing market for the community (i.e., the basic "doctrine" and mentality) I'm part of has worked from this methodology.

Since it wasn't just in my neck of the backwoods, it seemed far more pervasive to me.

....So no, Daphne, I don't think it's all in my head.

You don't really think I'm this far down in your post and don't know who, or what, you are really talking about do you? When you are ready to leave your extraordinary personal issues on the back burner, let me know.

...what?

I think I was thinking of my mother-in-law as a representative case when I was writing of this, but I meant exactly what I said. Because it's been my experience within that environment. Who were you thinking?

(This is the sort of crap I really don't like from you... where you think you know lots of "secret things" but continue to speak in riddles and never come out with what you really mean. Wonder yet why people respond poorly to you?)

Interesting. I see it as a way to conveniently avoid dealing with the very thing you speak of. Rather than having to personally invest yourself, you can now stand back and deal with no one. You can sit alone in your room and look at a theoretical framework while thinking X is true of Bob or Betty, and avoid having to deal with any real issues with them at all.

Thanks for misrepresenting me and slandering my character yet again. You really can't get yourself out of a simple mental binary, can you?

The only real understanding we can have with our fellow man is when we drop the mask. For some, every day is Halloween. Trick or treat.

You know, just because you can twist off the cute, pithy phrase time and again doesn't mean it has any more substance than empty, stale cotton candy.

Enjoy eating it alone.

 

[VagrantFarce]

Edit: The more time I spend here, the NF's continue to show me they are smarter than INTPs.
They get the message in my posts but it goes right over your head, Vagrant.
Congrats for striking out again. :hi:

No no, I "get" it - I just think you're callous and overly dismissive at the same time, without actually needing to be.

 

[Jaguar]

I think that was understood, wasn't it?
Why are you wasting time making a point that wasn't under debate?

You are the one who brought up religion and pastors, not I.

However, it doesn't negate that a large chunk of the culture I've experienced (all over the eastern seaboard, not just in central PA) and withinthe national writing market for the community (i.e., the basic "doctrine" and mentality) I'm part of has worked from this methodology.

Change you location if you don't like it.

I think I was thinking of my mother-in-law as a representative case when I was writing of this, but I meant exactly what I said. Because it's been my experience within that environment. Who were you thinking?

I was thinking of your family environment and the story you posted in the trans thread.
And don't jump to any conclusions on that comment, and accuse me of yet another "crime" I did not commit.

Wonder yet why people respond poorly to you?

The people who do not matter respond poorly.
The people who do matter, respond quite well.
God help you if you think what goes on in public is the real deal.

Thanks for misrepresenting me and slandering my character yet again.

No one is doing anything to you, much less slandering you.
If you want to make things up in your head, that's your choice.

You know, just because you can twist off the cute, pithy phrase time and again doesn't mean it has any more substance than empty, stale cotton candy.

I can't help it if your lack of insight hinders your understanding.
The NF's understand my posts quickly.

No no, I "get" it

No no, you don't.

 

[garbage]

Edit: The more time I spend here, the NF's continue to show me they are smarter than INTPs.

Impossible. NFs have Thinking in a tertiary or inferior position in the MBTI function model.

 

[PoprocksAndCoke]

I don't know about you, but I am positively baffled by Fi. When people tell me to "go inside myself and see what I want and need and feel and believe and blah blah blah," I just scratch my head and wonder what the hell that means.

Of course, I wouldn't say that I have no values or principles! I have very strong values and principles. I just find it hard to go 'inside myself' to see what 'I want' if it is not an 'instilled principle.'

Can anyone else relate? How did you overcome it?

Does this belong in Sexuality And Mature Topics? I'm all for sexual experiments to see what you like and don't like, but I'm not sure this is the right forum...

 

[Jaguar]

Impossible. NFs have Thinking in a tertiary or inferior position in the MBTI function model.

HA!

 

[Totenkindly]

I can't help it if your lack of insight hinders your understanding. The NF's understand my posts quickly.

Communication: An attempt by two people to understand each other.

I know I've been working my ass off to understand you and can't do better.
If you don't want to invest from your end, or you can't do better, it's over.

At least you have the NFs to make you happy.

 

[VagrantFarce]

No no, you don't.

Yes I do (you said that the people in this thread are abstracting others to the point where they don't have to honestly deal with them as individuals) but that doesn't change the fact that you're dismissive and tactless.

 

[Jaguar]

I know I've been working my ass off to understand you and can't do better.
If you don't want to invest from your end, or you can't do better, it's over.
At least you have the NFs to make you happy.

My future ex-wife.

 

[uumlau]

I'm noticing a bit of equating behaviors with cognitive functions, in this and other threads. One would be wise to recall that Keirsey came up with the concept of temperaments to help map MBTI to behaviors, precisely because the cognitive functions do not represent specific behaviors.

The cognitive functions, both "perceiving" and "judging" are better regarded as perspectives. When one adopts a particular set of these perspectives, there are indeed certain tendencies that can be observed as personality traits. One does not, however, "use" a cognitive function other than to arrive at one's own understanding.

For example, one does not "use Te" to organize one's desk. Rather, one sees a disorganized desk through the lens of Te, and then makes a decision to organize it. It is much like the maxim that if one's only tool is a hammer, then all of one's problems look like nails.

This goes for all of the functions. I suspect that my metaphorical description of Fi earlier in this thread struck a (happy) nerve with many Fi users, because they could read that, and think, "Yes, that's how I look at the world." From that perspective follows all sorts of possible behaviors, some of which are unique to Fi, but many of which are common to people who predominantly evaluate the world with other cognitive functions.

The reason I am making this clarification is because I was finding terms like "Fi user" and "Fe user" were leading me to conclusions that are not supported by MBTI analysis. (I have not used these terms/lenses other than in this forum: elsewhere I have treated a cognitive function as one of many properties of a person, not a descriptor.) Upon reading this terms here, I regarded them as placeholders for "person who has evaluated information with Fi", for example, but in common practice there is a lot of baggage attached, where "Fi user" simply brings to mind other connotations and contexts not addressed by MBTI or Jung.

The real clue to dealing with the behaviors related to Fi and Fe is that the conclusions that one reaches about a particular thing (event/idea/person/object) depend on the function by which one judges the thing. Fi and Fe judgments will sometimes reach similar conclusions and other times reach very different conclusions. Of interest are those conclusions that differ, and result in two people coming into conflict due to a difference in perception.

It's not an issue of an "Fi user" or an "Fe user" typically behaving badly (or well), but rather that choices made from an Fi context can seem "unjustified" in the Fe context, and vice versa. Sometimes sparks fly. (There is also the case where the bad behavior is just bad behavior, with virtually nothing to do with MBTI or Jung.)

Ideally, each can take a step back and consider the situation from the other's[/I] perspective, but usually this is rather difficult. I would like the focus of threads such as this to be explaining one's personal Fe/Fi perspective for the benefit of those who don't share that perspective. I find the back-and-forth crosstalk between those of different functions to be helpful with respect to identifying similar arguments/conflicts in my own life, but I would also like to see resolutions of these same conflicts.

 

[Totenkindly]

My future ex-wife.

I hope you're loaded because my lawyer just filed.

 

[Jaguar]

I hope you're loaded because my lawyer just filed.

You will never get your hands on the Swiss bank account. :hi:

 

[Totenkindly]

You will never get your hands on the Swiss bank account. :hi:

Oh, so that IS your Swiss bank account?

 

[onemoretime]

Oh, so that IS your Swiss bank account?

Busted.

 

[simulatedworld]

Edit: The more time I spend here, the NF's continue to show me they are smarter than INTPs.
They get the message in my posts but it goes right over your head, Vagrant.
Congrats for striking out again. :hi:

I wonder if you notice how consistently this kind of argument lines up across Fi/Te vs. Ti/Fe lines.

But I doubt it.

 

[Jaguar]

I wonder if you notice how consistently this kind of argument lines up across Fi/Te vs. Ti/Fe lines.

But I doubt it.

I'm ESFP, remember?