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Pretentious Fi

teslashock

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"Claiming" and "demanding" isn't introverted feeling behavior either.

Introverted feeling can cause people who have strong introverted feeling to claim that they are skilled in analyzing emotions and being "in tune" with others' emotions to the point that they are a bit arrogant about it. Sure, Fi people can be good at emotional analyses and understanding others' emotions, but this does not happen all of the time. Fi people know that they have this skill, so like anyone else who is aware of their skills, they may come across as arrogant with it. I have seen people claim that they are so good at understanding emotions that they can understand others' emotions better than the actual person feeling them.

You can be an introvert and still be arrogant. Having a dominant introverted function does not necessarily result in being timid and reserved. Having a dominant introverted judging function simply causes people to have a natural tendency to analyze and manifest their own internal preferences through their actions and behaviors. Strong introverted judgment causes one to analyze internally based on an internally categorized system, whether it's Ti or Fi. You are playing a game of semantics when you say that introverted functions will cause people to not "make claims" or be "demanding." People can be very strong in expressing their opinions even if their natural cognitive tendency is based upon an introverted function.

Also, Fi can be strong in those who use it as an auxiliary as well (ExFPs), and these guys are EXTROVERTS and according to your argument, this could result in being "demanding" and "making claims" (though I'm still going to disagree with your theory that "introverts" don't make claims or demands).

Vanity or self-absorption would have worked better for Fi. Pretentiousness is more of an extroverted activity.

Pretentiousness is only more of an "extroverted" activity when that word is used to mean ostentatious. I already clarified my connotation though.
 

teslashock

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How would you like it if someone denied that Ti-users are any good at making logical sense of something? That they seem to think they know everything but really are incompetent at the one thing that drives them?

I would argue that Ti users are not necessarily unskilled in making logical claims; they simply do not always know when their logical claims can be applied to reality. I have seen a lot of strong Ti users overanalyze a situation to the point that their analysis becomes based off of semantics and trivial qualities of the system, and when that occurs, it's just not applicable anymore.


I'm guessing you'd probably laugh and shrug, without even contemplating their claim, figuring that they clearly don't comprehend in the slightest way what Ti does and how it works and that therefore their perceptions are to be ignored.

Wrong.

Fi's reaction is quite similar, with the distinction that most of us do wanna be understood...desperately, as it creates harmony and minimizes miscommunication. Therefore it is hurtful to see someone presume, based on incomplete observations, that I as a person must be pretentious, coz you cannot see the merit or value in what I do.

I'm sorry that it hurt you so much to hear my opinions. I was never trying to be overly presumptious. I really thought I made it clear that I was open to other opinions because my observations may be rather limited. I really don't prefer to get into that again though.


Do we get it wrong? Hell yes. Do Ti-users never fuck up a theory? Hell no. Why is it then, that you're not using that word and its definition on Ti-users?

Because I wanted to talk about Fi in this thread, not Ti. I am ready and willing to admit that Ti, like ANY of the other functions, has its shortcomings and limitations and can be very obnoxious when used unhealthily.

It's a skill, just like your Ti is. We make mistakes. Everybody does. There's nothing mystical or incomprehensible about Fi. It's just not something you find useful as a tool or know how to wield.

Actually that's not true. I even stated in the OP that I see the value in Fi when it's used realistically.

I don't pretend to know how to wield Ti or to find it even makes sense to me. But you don't see me wondering if Ti is useful at all and accurate in any way.

If you did question Ti, I wouldn't be offended by your questioning. There is nothing wrong with questioning something. It helps us see things from new perspectives and reanalyze our beliefs/values. I don't see why we should be adverse to this. Go ahead and pick apart Ti if you want (but please make another thread for it, as this thread was made to talk about Fi). I really would not be offended in the slightest.
 

teslashock

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Havnt read any other claims, but lets take this from an ISTP cause and effect standpoint.

1. You didnt mean for it to come across this way
2. INFP took it as personal

You see the disconnect. So do you change how you come across, apologize because you didnt mean to, argue, or try and fix it next time(which can still have an apology). This is concrete and what is real. Instead you responded by attacking them for an Fi response that was driven by what you said and used it to attack them.

You're right, I never issued a formal apology. Look at my posts on pages 9 through 12 though. I acknowledged that I appreciate the NFP perspective, and I even said sorry about the lack of clarity and neutral words in the OP. I also made several posts clarifying what I wanted out of this thread; I stated that I was not trying to bash Fi or make presumptuous claims about it and that I was actually looking for a critique of my perceptions (I stated this several times throughout the whole thread).

I got upset with one NFP for her reaction to the thread early on. I really don't think I was particularly insulting to anybody else though or Fi users in general. Here's my formal apology though, since apparently it's still not clear that I'm not trying to be a complete bitch here:

I am sorry if I offended any Fi users with what I said in the OP or anywhere else on this thread. I'm a dense idiot, and it's hard for me to tell when people will be upset by what I say. I just value discussions, and I wasn't watching out for how my discussion might lead to hard feelings. I don't think you Fi users are worthless, and I do respect your opinions. I even wish that I could understand emotions like you healthy ones can.
 

Udog

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Um wow, well here's what I said that you quoted me on:

Does anybody feel like strong Fi users are really pretentious when it comes to understanding emotions? It seems like Fi people constantly think they know how other people are feeling but are wrong many times. In my experience, Fi users seem to feel the overwhelming urge to convince me that I'm feeling a certain way. It can be kind of annoying at times, but maybe it's some times helpful.

Let's not argue semantics anyway. That's kind of pointless.

Really, I was trying to say something that hadn't been said a million times in this thread. I believe the distinction is one worth making if you really want to analyze this subject.
 

teslashock

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I think Ti and Fi can go deeper in understanding. From my experience it seems like Fe and Te are more hard pressed in what they believe and act before getting a more in depth explanation.

My wife will jump on my words and be insistant on how I feel which is Fe and she misses my tone and context.

I have never known any strong Fe users to claim that they are skilled in understanding people's emotions. I have met strong Fe users who claim to be good at reading people's emotions, but not necessarily at predicting them.

It seems like Fi users values their ability to be empathetic and to take on the emotions of others. Perhaps this leads to them thinking that the emotions they are feeling at a given time are in fact the emotions of others as well, and that may not always be the case. I think that those with unhealthy Fi will be arrogant in their ability to empathize.

It seems like Fe, on the other hand, is very concerned wtih making sure that those around them are in a contented state. They ask questions (unlike the "pretentious" Fi users that I'm referencing) to make sure that everyone is cool in a given circumstance. They don't pretend to know anything until they have outward signals to back up their claims.

The ENFP on the other hand dug in deeper and tried different routes to get to the truth

This is when Fi is healthy, imo. Fi users do have the ability to dig deeply into the emotional world, analyze, and understand. I'd say that unhealthy Fi users (the ones that come off as arrogant or pretentious) are so confident in their skills that they don't always dig in deep enough and thus make premature claims before understanding all of the details.
 

Virtual ghost

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Just tell me one thing Tesla

Are you more annoyed when a FP tells you what you are feeling or when a TJ tells you what you should do ? (or that highly depend on the situation)
 

teslashock

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Just tell me one thing Tesla

Are you more annoyed when a FP tells you what you are feeling or when a TJ tells you what you should do ? (or that highly depend on the situation)

Well, both annoy me, but I'd say the TJ telling me what to do is even more obnoxious. I value freedom of thought and freedom of action. FPs may be able to tell me how I feel, but that doesn't actualyl change how I feel. I can either correct them, and if that takes too much effort, I can just concede and humor them by saying "Fuck it. You were right all along. Look at you go." TJs won't shut up until you actually do what they want or at least give off the impression that you're going to do waht they want. I find this to be much more pervasive in my everyday actions than intellectual arrogance.
 

Amargith

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Tesla, I wasn't hurt by this as I've talked to NTPs before, and I know how this goes. I guess I should've made my point differently. I'm trying to give you insight into Fi by relating it to the thing you know best, aka Ti, because they're similar in a lot of ways. I discuss Ti, not to discuss it, but to give you a way into the world of Fi, to see the parallells. I know from personal experience how hard it is to really grasp a mirror function, hence I was hoping my own method might help you a bit :)

Meanwhile, I somewhat tried to outline the differences in reactions and motivations between the two. I'm sorry if I didn't do that effectively.
 

Virtual ghost

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Well, both annoy me, but I'd say the TJ telling me what to do is even more obnoxious. I value freedom of thought and freedom of action. FPs may be able to tell me how I feel, but that doesn't actualyl change how I feel. I can either correct them, and if that takes too much effort, I can just concede and humor them by saying "Fuck it. You were right all along. Look at you go." TJs won't shut up until you actually do what they want or at least give off the impression that you're going to do waht they want. I find this to be much more pervasive in my everyday actions than intellectual arrogance.

I had an impression that I will get exactly this as an answer so I had to check. But yes, we can we be quite annoying.
 

Poki

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I have never known any strong Fe users to claim that they are skilled in understanding people's emotions. I have met strong Fe users who claim to be good at reading people's emotions, but not necessarily at predicting them.

It seems like Fi users values their ability to be empathetic and to take on the emotions of others. Perhaps this leads to them thinking that the emotions they are feeling at a given time are in fact the emotions of others as well, and that may not always be the case. I think that those with unhealthy Fi will be arrogant in their ability to empathize.

It seems like Fe, on the other hand, is very concerned wtih making sure that those around them are in a contented state. They ask questions (unlike the "pretentious" Fi users that I'm referencing) to make sure that everyone is cool in a given circumstance. They don't pretend to know anything until they have outward signals to back up their claims.



This is when Fi is healthy, imo. Fi users do have the ability to dig deeply into the emotional world, analyze, and understand. I'd say that unhealthy Fi users (the ones that come off as arrogant or pretentious) are so confident in their skills that they don't always dig in deep enough and thus make premature claims before understanding all of the details.

But is an unhealthy Fi truly using Fi as unhealthy pushes people more into a shadow which would be more immature Te and Fe.
 

Mad Hatter

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Let's not argue semantics anyway. That's kind of pointless.
(emphasis mine)

I would argue that Ti users are not necessarily unskilled in making logical claims; they simply do not always know when their logical claims can be applied to reality. I have seen a lot of strong Ti users overanalyze a situation to the point that their analysis becomes based off of semantics and trivial qualities of the system, and when that occurs, it's just not applicable anymore.
(emphasis mine)

I beg to differ. Discussing cognitive functions and trying to figure out what they really mean is nothing but semantics. Since I have never scraped a Fi off my hood, I strongly assume that it is just an abstract concept that gains its validity only via definition and discussion thereof. Nothing but semantics. The same applies to the other words I've underlined.
Sorry if that seems pedantic, but to me it somehow seems to me you're trying to take the easy way out here.

(I'm not trying to rant here, I'd just like to have a clarification.)
 

teslashock

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I beg to differ. Discussing cognitive functions and trying to figure out what they really mean is nothing but semantics. Since I have never scraped a Fi off my hood, I strongly assume that it is just an abstract concept that gains its validity only via definition and discussion thereof. Nothing but semantics. The same applies to the other words I've underlined.

Sure, discussing cognitive functions is about discussing their definitions. It's not about finding trivial nuances in our words and fixing them, even when the intention is clear though.

You quoted me responding to Udog's post that said we shouldn't argue about Fi but about Fi users. I think this is an argument of semantics because it just clarifies a trivial point that most of us understand anyway. We can discuss Fi or Fi users; the same arguments will come out of both discussions, so taking the time to clarify which one we are discussing seems rather pointless.
 

Mad Hatter

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You quoted me responding to Udog's post that said we shouldn't argue about Fi but about Fi users.

I know I quoted it out of context ;)
I think I can agree to what you've said; I just wanted to state my hesitation towards calling something trivial or clear enough.
 

teslashock

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Tesla, I wasn't hurt by this as I've talked to NTPs before, and I know how this goes. I guess I should've made my point differently. I'm trying to give you insight into Fi by relating it to the thing you know best, aka Ti, because they're similar in a lot of ways. I discuss Ti, not to discuss it, but to give you a way into the world of Fi, to see the parallells. I know from personal experience how hard it is to really grasp a mirror function, hence I was hoping my own method might help you a bit :)

Actually I've noticed the parallels before. They are interesting. I kind of want to start a thread about the Fi/Ti conundrum to discuss it, but I'm staying far far away from Fi for the moment (except for responding to any more posts on this thread).

Anyway, I've found that Fi users seem to take offense to any complaints about Fi with much more ease than Ti users do in response to any complaints about Ti. Ti users just try to break apart the system of complaints to logic their way out of any negative claims.
 

Amargith

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Don't forget that Fi gets a bad rep. Ti is widely recognized as 'useful' and 'logical' and gets a lot more credit than Fi ever does (I am talking now also in the real world). The good qualities of Fi are rarely recognized and it makes those that use it very much sad that it is so underappreciated (kinda like Si on this forum sometimes).

And..well, some of us have tried to explain to you what Fi is about, but it's just not that easy to put Fi into words. It's not somethign you can quantify or pigeonhole. It's, imo, something you need to experience, coz there just are no words to describe it or do it justice. Makes it very hard to show other people that a) it exists and it's not something fictional, b) it actually has value and c) what it *really* is.

Those problems, you don't encounter with Ti. The only thing you might encounter with Ti is that you go over people's heads, which will make them feel stupid. But Ti's very usefullness and value doesn't really get questionned, ime. Fi's does.
 

teslashock

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Don't forget that Fi gets a bad rep. Ti is widely recognized as 'useful' and 'logical' and gets a lot more credit than Fi ever does (I am talking now also in the real world). The good qualities of Fi are rarely recognized and it makes those that use it very much sad that it is so underappreciated (kinda like Si on this forum sometimes).

And..well, some of us have tried to explain to you what Fi is about, but it's just not that easy to put Fi into words. It's not somethign you can quantify or pigeonhole. It's, imo, something you need to experience, coz there just are no words to describe it or do it justice. Makes it very hard to show other people that a) it exists and it's not something fictional, b) it actually has value and c) what it *really* is.

Those problems, you don't encounter with Ti. The only thing you might encounter with Ti is that you go over people's heads, which will make them feel stupid. But Ti's very usefullness and value doesn't really get questionned, ime. Fi's does.

Actually this is very very true. Ti rarely gets criticized, and I think that might have something to do with the fact that most people who do any criticizing are Ti users themselves. I actually find Ti pretty obnoxious at times too though. It can be really arrogant as well (see Orangey's posts on this thread) to the point that it just completely misses the actual aim or goal of the matter at hand. It spends so much time trying to find "logical" holes in a system that it can almost ignore the overall big picture, and that's frustrating. I find myself wishing that strong Ti users would just go with their gut interpretations (either Ne-induced or Se-induced) and ignore the some times trivial "problems" in logic.

And of course, as you said, Ti users also tend to offer bouts of reasoning that completely fly over peoples' heads. They expect society and nature to operate off of impersonal logical principles, and that's not exactly how the real world functions in many situations.

And as far as not accepting Fi goes: It's really really hard for Ti users to understand a system that cannot be quantified or even put into some kind of language. We do find this really frustrating and that often leads to us casting it off as something meaningless and silly, but that's only because we need some form of closure. We can't really rest until we feel that we have completely understood something in our own terms, so when we don't understand Fi for what it actually is, we'll just write it off as completely worthless. I'll admit that the world would be pretty shitty if there were no Fi users though, so you guys must be good for something. ;)
 

PeaceBaby

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I'm not even going to pretend to read the copious responses in this thread, although I've skimmed and picked up the gist of the back & forth. I do have a few thoughts to share, so if they have been shared already, forgive the repetition.

For the record: I don't find your post disturbing, nor does it offend me, but I do think you use language a bit carelessly and are prone to generalization.

Initially when I first saw the thread I wanted to post a definition of the word "pretentious". I'm not sure that was the best choice for what you were trying to communicate. Perhaps "assumptive" or "presumptive" would have been better and less loaded with ostentatiousness on your part (meaning it seems you were trying to attract attention to your post with a word intended to provoke an emotional reaction from a group that reads the world via emotional means). In thread you claim objectivity in this initial posting, but many of the words and phrases you choose are not neutral (bolded emphasis mine):

"really pretentious"
"but are wrong many times"
"flaws in their emotional analyses"
"obnoxiously arrogant"
"NFJs are so much better than NFPs [at interpreting feelings]"
"NFPs simply think they absolutely rock the world of emotional analysis"

Language is sophisticated for a reason; you need to be careful how you use it in order to communicate without being misunderstood. It is hard to believe you are being objective when you add even extra weight to your (perhaps unwisely chosen) words with the enhancements I have bolded above. Again, it just looks like you are trying to sensationalize for the sake of getting a reaction.

And get a reaction you certainly did! Lots of great information for you to chew on and digest. ;)

---------------------------------

To answer your OP:

As I have gotten older I have come to trust the accuracy of emotions I sense from others but I try to refrain from drawing conclusions without testing to see if I am indeed reading correctly. But I only rarely share this "reading" with anyone; my experience is that most people don't want to be emotionally probed in their everyday lives. It creeps them out.

That being said, I have told relative strangers what I sense from them (only if they want me to) and they are shocked to think I can know this about them without really knowing them, and have verified my senses correct. People in general though can be unaware of their emotional states or are even actively trying to suppress them. So this information is generally for my eyes only - Fi is, after all, an introverted function. But you can't know that what you feel is accurate without some scientific validation. Hence why occasionally I will be complete in what I sense from and thus what I share with another person to check the accuracy meter! It is not easy to do this either - it feels like I am exposing a part of myself I keep quite private.

In my close relationships, I do share more. Sometimes I sense an emotional state and check in with my SO to see if it is correct. Mostly he says yes; occasionally no. But I would never presume to try to convince him he is feeling one way or another; I basically let it rest or probe deeper. Everyone is unique in how you can successfully uncover their feelings, and some people put up real boundaries to keep you from a hurting core. It's hard when what you sense from someone doesn't match what they are telling you. Time can often help.

I do agree that Fi users can extrapolate how something would make them feel personally and thus come to an incorrect assumption of how it would make another feel. This is where a bit of probing and fact-finding is useful. And really tuning in to what you are sensing from another, trying to tune into it in purity, the pure essence of the feeling. I would say this improves as one matures, when one can better separate what they are feeling inside vs what they feel outside and gain greater confidence discerning between the two.

Hope this is a bit of useful info for you teslashock!
 

teslashock

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I'm not even going to pretend to read the copious responses in this thread, although I've skimmed and picked up the gist of the back & forth. I do have a few thoughts to share, so if they have been shared already, forgive the repetition.

Yeah, well there's a quite a bit of it.

For the record: I don't find your post disturbing, nor does it offend me, but I do think you use language a bit carelessly and are prone to generalization.

Initially when I first saw the thread I wanted to post a definition of the word "pretentious". I'm not sure that was the best choice for what you were trying to communicate. Perhaps "assumptive" or "presumptive" would have been better and less loaded with ostentatiousness on your part (meaning it seems you were trying to attract attention to your post with a word intended to provoke an emotional reaction from a group that reads the world via emotional means). In thread you claim objectivity in this initial posting, but many of the words and phrases you choose are not neutral (bolded emphasis mine):

"really pretentious"
"but are wrong many times"
"flaws in their emotional analyses"
"obnoxiously arrogant"
"NFJs are so much better than NFPs [at interpreting feelings]"
"NFPs simply think they absolutely rock the world of emotional analysis"

Language is sophisticated for a reason; you need to be careful how you use it in order to communicate without being misunderstood. It is hard to believe you are being objective when you add even extra weight to your (perhaps unwisely chosen) words with the enhancements I have bolded above. Again, it just looks like you are trying to sensationalize for the sake of getting a reaction.

We've already touched upon this in many posts on this thread with many different members. I'm not going back to it again, but thanks for your belated input I guess. Nothing particularly profound was said by you though. But feel free to do more than skim if you'd like to truly understand how this thread has played out.

And yes, pretentious is still the best word for communicating my perceptions. That's already been discussed though too.

And get a reaction you certainly did! Lots of great information for you to chew on and digest. ;)

Much of the "information" in this thread consists of people bashing me for my lack of tact in handling Fi users. There's some interesting stuff, but no where near as much as I was wanting. I suppose I was expecting the hard feelings. Meh, whatever.

To answer your OP:

Thanks; you should have just skipped to this part from the get-go.

As I have gotten older I have come to trust the accuracy of emotions I sense from others but I try to refrain from drawing conclusions without testing to see if I am indeed reading correctly. But I only rarely share this "reading" with anyone; my experience is that most people don't want to be emotionally probed in their everyday lives. It creeps them out.

That.

I have told relative strangers what I sense from them (only if they want me to) and they are shocked to think I can know this about them without really knowing them, and have verified my senses correct. People in general can be unaware of their emotional states or are even actively trying to suppress them. So this information is generally for my eyes only.

This paragraph kind of makes me want to vomit, but I understand why you value this alleged skill.

Fi is after all an introverted function.

Again, I already went over why I don't think strong Fi automatically yields a reserved presence.

In my close relationships, I do share more. Sometimes I sense an emotional state and check in with my SO to see if it is correct. Mostly yes; occasionally no. But I would never presume to try to convince him he is feeling one way or another; I basically let it rest or probe deeper. Everyone is unique in how you can successfully uncover their feelings, and some people put up real boundaries to keep you from a hurting core. It's hard when what you sense from someone doesn't match what they are telling you. Time can often help.

This sounds nice. I wish that all Fi users were as humble as you.

I do agree that Fi users can extrapolate how something would make them feel personally and thus come to an incorrect assumption of how it would make another feel. This is where a bit of probing and fact-finding is useful. And really tuning in to what you are sensing from another, trying to tune into it in purity, the pure essence of the feeling. I would say this improves as one matures, and can separate better what they are feeling inside vs what they feel outside and gain greater confidence discerning the two.

Yes I agree. I think that most of the "pretentiousness" that I'm perceiving is due to the fact that some Fi users don't use their Pe enough to get enough information before making a claim. Understanding the reason for it makes it no less annoying though.
 

PeaceBaby

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This paragraph kind of makes me want to vomit, but I understand why you value this alleged skill.

Well, it can be like knowing the lottery numbers. It's a real advantage in many contexts.

Again, I already went over why I don't think strong Fi automatically yields a reserved presence.

I can't comment on whether a reserved presence is a given, but I can share with you my own personal qualities - I keep my feelings to myself 95 - 99% of the time. I don't know any INFP's who walk around with their feelings exposed for all to see either. BUT - I do think in a very close or intimate relationship, more would be visible and thus perhaps an issue of contention.
 

Thalassa

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But Ti's very usefullness and value doesn't really get questionned, ime. Fi's does.

I'm going to have to disagree with that. Sometimes Ti seems pedantic and out of touch with reality. Te seems more "useful" than Ti to me. I definitely value Ti, even admire it at times, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that I think it's always "useful." It annoys the shit out of me sometimes, actually, and seems intellectually pretentious as opposed to emotionally pretentious. I actually think that Ti and Fi mirror each other in many ways, and this mirror both draws me and repels me when I find it in NTPs.
 
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