Quasi-temperaments and other thoughts.

[Athenian200]

Okay, I recently posted this in another thread in response to a question, and someone suggested that I add it to a new thread... here it is. What I've done is defined "Quasi" temperaments by selecting the types that would seem to be most similar to a particular temperament, excepting the actual members of that temperament.

Quasi-Rationals: INFJ, ENFP, ESTJ, ISTP.

Quasi-Idealists: INTJ, ENTP, ESFJ, ISFP.

Quasi-Guardians: INTJ, ENTJ, INFJ, ENFJ.

Quasi-Artisans: INTP, ENTP, ENFP, INFP.

Interestingly, you can quickly see from this that IS_J's and ES_P's are the most strongly concentrated versions of their respective temperaments, as they don't show up at all. Upon further inspection, you notice that dominant Judgment types (IP's and EJ's) show up once, while dominant N types show up twice. This shows that stronger N's typically tend to spread their interests across a greater spectrum, and have tendencies in multiple directions, while most S's tend to be more predictable and focused in their interests, and probably make better specialists in any given field. But more importantly, it shows that IN_P's and EN_J's should be the most concentrated versions of their respective temperaments, because the N element is submitted to T or F, making the "filtered" element of N that creates the division in the Intuitive temperaments in the first place more pronounced.

Given how we usually think of N as being more creative and innovative, and S as more stable and reliable, it makes sense that the stronger the S, the more stable their expressions/motivations would be, and the stronger the N, the more spread out their motivations would be. This explains why INxJ's are often confused about their type... INFJ's often have Idealist, Guardian, and Rational motivations to some extent. I noticed this myself several as I was trying to type myself by temperament, a common method. I found that I could find something of myself in all of the temperament descriptions aside from SP, which just stood out as, "No, that's nothing like me."

What do you think?

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

An interesting theory. I am not that adept in juggling lists of functions to immediately see, how the functions work out I think there are temperaments closer and farther to other major temperaments, and your suggestions seem reasonable.

I particularly agree on quasi-guardians, all of them..

I don't know about ISFP as quasi-idealist, so I don't know whether to agree or disagree. I just don't know them enough.

I have great reservations to consider ENFP as a rational. Some that I have met could pass for a rational, some seem to have abandoned rationality. I'd still say that there is a better than average chance that ENFP may be considered somewhat like a rational. Not a person like findthejake, tho. No offense. It wouldn't be impossible that a keen mind would be hidden inside the fruit-cakey appearance.

Quasi-artisans, I agree but with reservations on INTP.

Quasi-idealists, all seem somewhat reasonable, INTJ the most.

 

[proteanmix]

What makes NJs quasi-guardians? Te/Fe? Ni?

 

[Athenian200]

An interesting theory. I am not that adept in juggling lists of functions to immediately see, how the functions work out I think there are temperaments closer and farther to other major temperaments, and your suggestions seem reasonable.

I particularly agree on quasi-guardians, all of them..

I don't know about ISFP as quasi-idealist, so I don't know whether to agree or disagree. I just don't know them enough.

I have great reservations to consider ENFP as a rational. Some that I have met could pass for a rational, some seem to have abandoned rationality. I'd still say that there is a better than average chance that ENFP may be considered somewhat like a rational. Not a person like findthejake, tho. No offense. It wouldn't be impossible that a keen mind would be hidden inside the fruit-cakey appearance.

Quasi-artisans, I agree but with reservations on INTP.

Quasi-idealists, all seem somewhat reasonable, INTJ the most.

It was based only on functional order, not actual people, so it might be off in terms of tested/understood type, because of the limitations of testing skewing people of one type to different one than they should occupy in the model.

Out of curiosity, Would you think that an ENFP has a better chance of appearing that way than an INFP, because they can use Te better if it's developed?

Also, the few ISFP's I've seen seemed very similar to INFP's. I think it would make sense to assume they were similar, because INTP's and ISTP's are often considered to be similar in various ways.

What makes NJs quasi-guardians? Te/Fe? Ni?

Te and Fe mainly. Also, they were the only J's remaining aside from SJ's. All other possible types had a fairly strong Extraverted perceiving function, making them considerably more different in expression/motivation from SJ's. I mainly meant that NJ's were the types aside from SJ's mostly likely to show SJ-ish behaviors.

 

[Economica]

athenian200 (and other readers of the thread), did you see meanlittlechimp's temperament crossover thread? Your systems have similarities but also differences.

 

[proteanmix]

Te and Fe mainly. Also, they were the only J's remaining aside from SJ's. All other possible types had a fairly strong Extraverted perceiving function, making them considerably more different in expression/motivation from SJ's. I mainly meant that NJ's were the types aside from SJ's mostly likely to show SJ-ish behaviors.

What do you consider SJish behaviors? Si is what makes SJs Guardians, not Te and Fe.

ETA: I see more similarities between NJs/SPs and SJs/NPs. These sets share all of cognitive processes. Although I understand how they look superficially alike.

 

[Athenian200]

athenian200 (and other readers of the thread), did you see meanlittlechimp's temperament crossover thread? Your systems have similarities but also differences.

Yes, actually. I also thought along those lines, but this seemed to make more sense to me.

What do you consider SJish behaviors? Si is what makes SJs Guardians, not Te and Fe.

So you're proposing that NP's are more SJ-ish than NJ's?

To me, SJ-ish behavior is making plans, organizing, dealing with things in an structured manner, etc. The difference between SJ's and NJ's is that SJ's focus more on the specific method/standard used performing the task, while the NJ focuses more on the underlying goal. Both of them ultimately focus on a goal and deal with things in terms of it, but they internally perceive the goals differently. The perceiving process is less visible in both SJ's and NJ's, while the judgment is more obvious. Does that make sense?

 

[digesthisickness]

okay, in order to know if i'm getting what you're saying, here's a question. are you saying these types have so much in common (or overlap in appearance) that they are easiest to confuse with one another? even, depending on the person, to themselves?

Quasi-Idealists: INTJ, ENTP, ESFJ, ISFP.

because just having ESFJ that close to me in text makes me cringe.

 

[Athenian200]

okay, in order to know if i'm getting what you're saying, here's a question. are you saying these types have so much in common (or overlap in appearance) that they are easiest to confuse with one another? even, depending on the person, to themselves?

Quasi-Idealists: INTJ, ENTP, ESFJ, ISFP.

because just having ESFJ that close to me in text makes me cringe.

No, I don't think that ENTP's are similar to ESFJ's.

I just meant that all four of those types are most similar to the four Idealist types, aside from those types themselves, for two reasons.

1. They all have one of the functions related to that temperament as dominant, and the other as tertiary... meaning it's less of a weakness than it would be otherwise.

2. They're the most similar to a particular member of that temperament.

INTJ -- INFJ

ENTP -- ENFP

ESFJ -- ENFJ

ISFP -- INFP

Does that make sense?

 

[proteanmix]

So you're proposing that NP's are more SJ-ish than NJ's?

To me, SJ-ish behavior is making plans, organizing, dealing with things in an structured manner, etc. The difference between SJ's and NJ's is that SJ's focus more on the specific method/standard used performing the task, while the NJ focuses more on the underlying goal. Both of them ultimately focus on a goal and deal with things in terms of it, but they internally perceive the goals differently. The perceiving process is less visible in both SJ's and NJ's, while the judgment is more obvious. Does that make sense?

Yeah it makes sense. I understand why you made your list the way you did. I'm not saying NPs are more SJish, but I do think they have more in common with underlying motivations. I think that by looking at external factors like organizing, implementing, and structuring yes they look alike. Se-Ni, Si-Ne are like balances more than Si-Ni and Ne-Se are. It just depends on your point of departure.

I think that if you focus on another set of similarities that list could be completely rearranged. Look at how driven to action and implementation NJs are and how competency focused SPs are. Is that Te/Fe or Se? NPs (INPs more than ENPs) seem really connected to their memories and past experiences to inform Fi and Ti. ENPs try to escape from their Si but it has a very strong pull on them.

Even by looking at the archetypes of the, the inferior function is listed as the aspirational. That means you consciously or unconsciously seek to gain mastery of it. I'm thinking that means you want to connect with it more fully so that it's not as troubling to you. NJs seek to gain more competency over Se and NPs seek to gain competency over Si. Same thing with SPs they seek to be more in touch with their Ni and SJs with Ne. It seems like NPs and SJs are moving towards the same thing, just as NJs and SPs. Since they're trying to gain the strengths that the other has, shouldn't they look more alike unconsciously?

OK, I'm stopping now until I think more. Does this make sense??

 

[digesthisickness]

No, I don't think that ENTP's are similar to ESFJ's.

I just meant that all four of those types are most similar to the four Idealist types, aside from those types themselves, for two reasons.

1. They all have one of the functions related to that temperament as dominant, and the other as tertiary... meaning it's less of a weakness than it would be otherwise.

2. They're the most similar to a particular member of that temperament.

INTJ -- INFJ

ENTP -- ENFP

ESFJ -- ENFJ

ISFP -- INFP

Does that make sense?

ah, gotcha. okay, that makes a lot more sense. not to mention i can now relax my sphincter.

 

[Athenian200]

Yeah it makes sense. I understand why you made your list the way you did. I'm not saying NPs are more SJish, but I do think they have more in common with underlying motivations. I think that by looking at external factors like organizing, implementing, and structuring yes they look alike. Se-Ni, Si-Ne are like balances more than Si-Ni and Ne-Se are. It just depends on your point of departure.

I think that if you focus on another set of similarities that list could be completely rearranged. Look at how driven to action and implementation NJs are and how competency focused SPs are. Is that Te/Fe or Se? NPs (INPs more than ENPs) seem really connected to their memories and past experiences to inform Fi and Ti. ENPs try to escape from their Si but it has a very strong pull on them.

Even by looking at the archetypes of the, the inferior function is listed as the aspirational. That means you consciously or unconsciously seek to gain mastery of it. I'm thinking that means you want to connect with it more fully so that it's not as troubling to you. NJs seek to gain more competency over Se and NPs seek to gain competency over Si. Same thing with SPs they seek to be more in touch with their Ni and SJs with Ne. It seems like NPs and SJs are moving towards the same thing, just as NJs and SPs. Since they're trying to gain the strengths that the other has, shouldn't they look more alike unconsciously?

OK, I'm stopping now until I think more. Does this make sense??

Yes. I was focusing more on the obvious/superficial motivations in that case. In fact, I have another, separate idea about this that works if you accept Beebe's ideas about the layout of functions... it's reminiscent of Socionic "quadras." But I don't personally get along well with SP's, so I didn't really want to bring this out at first. Since you do, however, it might be relevant. (Although for the record, I disagree with calling the inferior "aspirational." I have no Se aspirations... in fact I'm pretty opposed to Se most of the time.)

1: ESTP, ENFJ, INFJ, ISTP

2: ESFP, INTJ, ISFP, ENTJ

3: INFP, ESTJ, ENFP, ISTJ

4: INTP, ESFJ, ISFJ, ENTP

 

[TenebrousReflection]

I noticed this myself several as I was trying to type myself by temperament, a common method. I found that I could find something of myself in all of the temperament descriptions aside from SP, which just stood out as, "No, that's nothing like me."

What do you think?

When I looked at things that way, Guardian was the only one that I saw virtually nothing to relate to in.

I'm fairly convinced I'm INFP, but I see a lot of myself in INTP and INFJ. A little bit of myself in INTJ, and ISFP.

I know you have referenced enneagrams before and I have not previously commented on those threads, but I also consider myself a 4w5. I think 4w5s of any type will likely relate to both NF and NT, and a 4w3 would be more likely to relate to NF and SP. I do relate to the adventure/fun seeking (experience and enjoy life) side of SP as an aspirational/envy role but overall relate more to NTs than SPs as far as out of temperament commonalities. I would further speculate that Ne is what drives me to both question and try to understand things (as an NTP would) and to want to take in new experiences as an SP would (and SP would be drivin be Se to want similar things, but how the actual experience is percieved is what would differ).

 

[cascadeco]

Given how we usually think of N as being more creative and innovative, and S as more stable and reliable, it makes sense that the stronger the S, the more stable their expressions/motivations would be, and the stronger the N, the more spread out their motivations would be. This explains why INxJ's are often confused about their type... INFJ's often have Idealist, Guardian, and Rational motivations to some extent. I noticed this myself several as I was trying to type myself by temperament, a common method. I found that I could find something of myself in all of the temperament descriptions aside from SP, which just stood out as, "No, that's nothing like me."

What do you think?

Temperament-wise, NF for me was first and I actually think SP was second!!! [I only did one 'temperament test', though, so don't know that it was accurate. But even reading the descriptions, I could 'relate' to SP on a few levels, and I think SJ was the one that resonated least]

For me, I know what I'm definitely not. Definitely NOT: ESTJ, ESTP, ESFJ, ESFP, ENTJ, ENTP, ISTP, ISTJ

Profiles I read that I 'understand' and don't seem entirely foreign: ENFP, ENFJ, ISFP, ISFJ, INTP

Profiles I read that I see a lot more similarities to, depending on my mood: INFx and INTJ, with INFx being the absolute closest, and my having settled on INFJ because I just don't see that much 'P' in how I carry out my life day to day.

Factoring in cognitive functions [which I'm not entirely sure I can do accurately without being biased in my own perception of myself - example: I usually self-evaluate myself as having low Fe, although the reality is that I think I exhibit it quite a lot in how I handle relationships], there's nothing terribly clearcut. Consistently: Ni and Fi are highest. Te is lowest. Everything else is moderate. According to Cognitive-function tests, closest fit for me is INFP or ISFP.

 

[quietgirl]

Yeah it makes sense. I understand why you made your list the way you did. I'm not saying NPs are more SJish, but I do think they have more in common with underlying motivations. I think that by looking at external factors like organizing, implementing, and structuring yes they look alike. Se-Ni, Si-Ne are like balances more than Si-Ni and Ne-Se are. It just depends on your point of departure.

I think that if you focus on another set of similarities that list could be completely rearranged. Look at how driven to action and implementation NJs are and how competency focused SPs are. Is that Te/Fe or Se? NPs (INPs more than ENPs) seem really connected to their memories and past experiences to inform Fi and Ti. ENPs try to escape from their Si but it has a very strong pull on them.

Even by looking at the archetypes of the, the inferior function is listed as the aspirational. That means you consciously or unconsciously seek to gain mastery of it. I'm thinking that means you want to connect with it more fully so that it's not as troubling to you. NJs seek to gain more competency over Se and NPs seek to gain competency over Si. Same thing with SPs they seek to be more in touch with their Ni and SJs with Ne. It seems like NPs and SJs are moving towards the same thing, just as NJs and SPs. Since they're trying to gain the strengths that the other has, shouldn't they look more alike unconsciously?

OK, I'm stopping now until I think more. Does this make sense??

This makes perfect sense to me & I agree with the idea.

Take my mother & I for example. She's an ESTP and I'm an INFJ. We share the same top four functions and we literally feed off of one another. There are times when she makes me want to rip out my hair, but for the most part, we UNDERSTAND one another's underlying motivations because we use the same functions. I find that my INTP buddy & ISTJ father seem to have the same motivations when it comes down to it - namely with the Si. Both of them have the habit of comparing everything to past experience & making judgements based on it. My INFP brother does this as well - and he & the INTP will both occasionally be immobilized by their Si. My mother & I rarely ever compare things to the past & I find my boyfriend (possible ISTP) rarely compares the present & the future to the past.

 

[proteanmix]

This makes perfect sense to me & I agree with the idea.

Take my mother & I for example. She's an ESTP and I'm an INFJ. We share the same top four functions and we literally feed off of one another. There are times when she makes me want to rip out my hair, but for the most part, we UNDERSTAND one another's underlying motivations because we use the same functions. I find that my INTP buddy & ISTJ father seem to have the same motivations when it comes down to it - namely with the Si. Both of them have the habit of comparing everything to past experience & making judgements based on it. My INFP brother does this as well - and he & the INTP will both occasionally be immobilized by their Si. My mother & I rarely ever compare things to the past & I find my boyfriend (possible ISTP) rarely compares the present & the future to the past.

One of the things that helped me cement my ENFJ type is I figured out how comfortable using Ne vs Se I was. If I were an ESFJ, Ne would be my tertiary. I just don't think I can consciously call Ne forth from the deep. I have zero nostalgic tendencies which would be indicative of Si and very little romantic attachment to objects. I also tried to see how much I like to relive experiences or if I can recall past experiences without the need to do them again. Sometimes I feel like if I don't do something repeatedly I'm never going to remember what it feels like (immature Se). I think unconscious motivations are more indicative of similarities than P and J preferences.

 

[cascadeco]

Hmmm..this is very interesting. I often get nostalgic about the past and get warm fuzzies thinking about previous phases of my life, and enjoy looking at photos and remembering past events, which is apparently Si. Um....what does this mean??

Just another reason for me to think I'm an INFJ/INFP/INTJ/xxxx mutt.

 

[proteanmix]

Hmmm..this is very interesting. I often get nostalgic about the past and get warm fuzzies thinking about previous phases of my life, and enjoy looking at photos and remembering past events, which is apparently Si. Um....what does this mean??

Just another reason for me to think I'm an INFJ/INFP/INTJ/xxxx mutt.

It means nothing. We use all eight of our cognitive processes. It's not like I don't get the warm fuzzies thinking about the past either, but I tend to not dwell on or romanticize it very much. And plus if you're an INFJ who's processes have developed normally, Si would be "higher up" in your functions than mine although it exists in the shadow for both of us.

 

[quietgirl]

Hmmm..this is very interesting. I often get nostalgic about the past and get warm fuzzies thinking about previous phases of my life, and enjoy looking at photos and remembering past events, which is apparently Si. Um....what does this mean??

Just another reason for me to think I'm an INFJ/INFP/INTJ/xxxx mutt.

I don't really care for nostalgia too much, but I do get the warm fuzzies when looking at pictures too! It's more that when something is over, I tend to shut the door on it completely & I don't take it into consideration when dealing with the present. Of course that comes back to bite me on a few occasions (they say history has a way of repeating itself!), but I simply do not naturally access it in my normal thought/feeling/reaction process.