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Astrology, MBTI, enneagram correlation

simulatedworld

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Mate, you've just got arsey about a month being the same as month, time, date and place... Not my issue

Good lord. Do you not understand how claiming a more specific correlation makes astrology even less likely to show any validity?

I mean, really, for the love of God, do you not get that?
 

tinkerbell

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I get that you are trolling, I get that you are tryignt o sweep under the carpet that you think that moth = 5 alternative variables, I also get you don't know enough about the subject to either be knoweldgable or objective.
 

Totenkindly

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To reopen in a few minutes.

Meanwhile, it might help to go back to the very opening lines of the OP:
Just for fun. Not scientifically...

Conversation would be far more productive if the discourse was handled differently -- i.e., if you disagree with someone's view, calmly state why you believe what you do but not feel the need to keep beating someone with expressed incredulity.. or ask questions, if it comes up that you might not understand why they're saying something... or else, if you can't participate in the discussion as-is, choosing to vacate it and start your own.

People will be removed from the thread if they can't follow one of the above guidelines, thanks.
 

simulatedworld

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I get that you are trolling, I get that you are tryignt o sweep under the carpet that you think that moth = 5 alternative variables, I also get you don't know enough about the subject to either be knoweldgable or objective.

Okay, allow me to politely ask what evidence you have that any such correlation between birth date+place+time and behavioral tendencies exists?
 

Totenkindly

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I was curious too, about why it makes a difference supposedly, between

Birth Month = Nov
Birth time place and date = Nov 22nd 1979, 2.10am, New york City, NY, USA

and how big a difference it would seemingly make and why...

(Even if I accepted the premise as true, does the level of granularity really make a difference after a certain point?)
 

tinkerbell

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I've been doing astology as in charting it for c.9 years, so probably pulled several thousand charts. To boil it into a month/sign is bonkers.

Take the sun, there are 360 placements possibilities of the sun (which depends on the date and time)
The moon is the same at 360 (which depends on the date place and time)
Mercury - 360 (which depends on the date and time)
Venus - again 360 (which depends on the date and time)
Mars has less possibilites not 180 maybe 190 possibiliteis per year (which depends on the date)
Jupiter has only around 35 degrees of freedom each year.... again date of birth dependant
Saturn has only around 15 degrees of freedom each year again depends on the date
Uranus has only 6 degrees of freedom each year pending dates of B
Neptune has only 3 degrees of freedom each year date dep
Pluto 3 degrees of freedom each year date depending.

So you miss a whole lot if you just look at month, and the above missed any movement which is wider for some planets than I've listed above. Therfore once you combine all 10 planets that a pretty uneque picture.

This is then put on a dial/quare that is calcualted for your actual time and palce of birth, which places planets in specific locations...


Once you have all of the above... then you interpret what that mean... all of the above is astronomoy, taken from ephemeris data, which is reliable.

The intrepretation is dependant on the education and training of the person reading, and like any interpretation is only as good as the skills of the person reading.

I've stat next to skepts on planes and identified major life changes affecting them, I've idenitfyed personal difficulties or difficulties someone I don't know has been suffering with their whole life.

I'm not trying to convert you, simply share that you month of brith... you are missng a all the data that astrollogy is based on.

We've discussed the subject before and I know I'm falling on deaf ears, and that if your choice, but if you dont' know the subject you are arguing against, then it's just closed mindedness.
 

tinkerbell

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I was curious too, about why it makes a difference supposedly, between



and how big a difference it would seemingly make and why...

(Even if I accepted the premise as true, does the level of granularity really make a difference after a certain point?)


The difference between November = which means that around half the planets are insecure in placement v's Dec 12th 2009 means that the planets are attibuted to 1-2 degreed.

In nov - the sun moves c.30 degrees
The moon travels c.400 degrees
Mercury if travelling fast might moves around 40 degrees
Venus moves around 35 degrees
Mars moved around 25 degrees...

the slower planets move less fast...

But we are interested in exactly where they lie and how they intereact with each other.... which changes every single day, no two days are ever the same, not in history, the cylces never quite line up again... every moment in time is totaly uneque.

Not sure if that realy aswers your question
 

simulatedworld

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Okay, can you provide a single example of two people who were born in the same place at the same time and who show significant behavioral similarities?

Furthermore, can you provide numerous examples of this phenomenon, enough to suggest that a significant correlation exists and to quell doubts that the first case is merely coincidence?
 

tinkerbell

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Okay, can you provide a single example of two people who were born in the same place at the same time and who show significant behavioral similarities?

Furthermore, can you provide numerous examples of this phenomenon, enough to suggest that a significant correlation exists and to quell doubts that the first case is merely coincidence?

As I've said before, we've had this conversation you don't want the answer... there is something called astral twins.

There is a study by Gauquelin (?Sp) which did formal quant research. I'd say astrologers are like psycologist, AWFUL at research, most psycological research is nothign short of PANTS, small non indepdnant sample sizes, MASSIVE skewed findings. MBTI has no scientific testing behind it acroding to wiki... which is quite funny I think

I don't see the point in going round in circles with you its seriously dull, and just roaring that you think it's all rubbish just makes you seem uneducated. My original point was that astrology isn't about a month or even a day, it's abotu a specific moment in time and space... that is totally uneque.
 

compulsiverambler

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I'd say astrologers are like psycologist, AWFUL at research, most psycological research is nothign short of PANTS, small non indepdnant sample sizes, MASSIVE skewed findings. MBTI has no scientific testing behind it acroding to wiki... which is quite funny I think
That's true of most scientific fields, including important ones like medicine, for various reasons. That doesn't mean all studies within them are worthless, some are very well done. You have to judge each piece of research by its own merit.
 

tinkerbell

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Ok to share a personal example, I have an astral twin born 2 minutes after me, in Gautamal... I know his girlfriend online because we did a class together.

Ok we had similar types of upbrining (our MBTIs don't match, although I beleive he is a rationalist not the same type).

OK with astrology when the genders are reversed it works slightly differently.

His mum died within weeks of my dad dieing (not to the day but within the same qurter)
His dad died within weeks even closer to my mum (we are talking c.4 weeks)

In the same period I was bugled 3 times and had all sorts of crime happening to and around me, he also had 2 buglaries, and had to change addess as I did in the UK.

Now those are top line, and I've not explored in huge dpeth, but this is a guy I've chatted to once for 5 minutes, I've never met him, and he lives in a very different country to me... but major life events happened close enough for me to see parralles. From your perspective they are not to the day, but from my perspective the astorlogy at the time is similar enough in transit time to be good enough to draw parallels..

As you can imagine there are plenty of ways we differ too, but big stuff seem to align
 

miss fortune

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kyuuei

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Aeris, Type 8, ENFP. :) I happen to think they all correlate extremely well together.
 

Venom

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As I've said before, we've had this conversation you don't want the answer... there is something called astral twins.

There is a study by Gauquelin (?Sp) which did formal quant research. I'd say astrologers are like psycologist, AWFUL at research, most psycological research is nothign short of PANTS, small non indepdnant sample sizes, MASSIVE skewed findings. MBTI has no scientific testing behind it acroding to wiki... which is quite funny I think

I don't see the point in going round in circles with you its seriously dull, and just roaring that you think it's all rubbish just makes you seem uneducated. My original point was that astrology isn't about a month or even a day, it's abotu a specific moment in time and space... that is totally uneque.

Ok to share a personal example, I have an astral twin born 2 minutes after me, in Gautamal... I know his girlfriend online because we did a class together.

Ok we had similar types of upbrining (our MBTIs don't match, although I beleive he is a rationalist not the same type).

OK with astrology when the genders are reversed it works slightly differently.

His mum died within weeks of my dad dieing (not to the day but within the same qurter)
His dad died within weeks even closer to my mum (we are talking c.4 weeks)

In the same period I was bugled 3 times and had all sorts of crime happening to and around me, he also had 2 buglaries, and had to change addess as I did in the UK.

Now those are top line, and I've not explored in huge dpeth, but this is a guy I've chatted to once for 5 minutes, I've never met him, and he lives in a very different country to me... but major life events happened close enough for me to see parralles. From your perspective they are not to the day, but from my perspective the astorlogy at the time is similar enough in transit time to be good enough to draw parallels..

As you can imagine there are plenty of ways we differ too, but big stuff seem to align

I think the difference between MBTI and astrology is that MBTI doesnt necessarily claim to be metaphysical (depending on which theorist; Jung did, but other people dont).

--MBTI is a great map. It doesnt claim to be the territory. Its a self response inventory. ENFJ doesnt have to be a "real" thing with metaphysical causal essence. Its simply an idea that a lot of people all agree on, "hey i identify with ENFJ too!".

--Astrology claims to have causal powers. It claims that a time and space positioning of planets has a causal and metaphysical effect on humans. Its not just a self response inventory. Its metaphysical because its not really measurable in a postriori synthetic sense. We cant perform scientific inductive reasoning because there isn't a way to control the variables in a repeated fashion. We can't infer the existence of a naturalistic causation because the variable control would be such a nightmare (the phenomena are at the level of existence itself, so how will you control the variables?). Its not a priori analytic knowledge either, so it falls under a priori synthetic and therefore metaphysical knowledge. Metaphysical knowledge is perfectly fine and logical, when it stays as metaphysical knowledge. Metaphysical knowledge can be as real as "2 + 2 = 4" when its only being "true for you". Metaphysical knowledge though isn't really transferable because its so perception dependent, and therefore its not really "provable to others".

example: The astrological system can be as true as "2 + 2 = 4" for tinkerbell, based on the metaphysical perceptions that make it "true for her". I however, can never really share her metaphysical perceptions. I can never share whatever metaphysical perception allows her to know that the Titan moon doesnt have causal effects, while the earth moon does. I can however share whatever descriptions I've mapped out to people who self-identify as ENFJ. Im not claiming my maps are causal, because the map isnt the territory (it isnt metaphysically "real").

So to sum up the issues:
--Both Astrology and "MBTI with metaphysical functions" are perfectly logical and sound, when they remain metaphysical belief systems. When both claims to be physical, and not metaphysical, then they become psudo-science (because they cant ever reach the level of induction that modern science requires).
--MBTI without metaphysical functions, can however reach a level postriori synthetic, because we can measure who self assesses themselves as identifying with "the map" of certain MBTI types (nothing metaphysical is being claimed to be real).
 

INTP

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simulatedworld

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As I've said before, we've had this conversation you don't want the answer... there is something called astral twins.

There is a study by Gauquelin (?Sp) which did formal quant research. I'd say astrologers are like psycologist, AWFUL at research, most psycological research is nothign short of PANTS, small non indepdnant sample sizes, MASSIVE skewed findings. MBTI has no scientific testing behind it acroding to wiki... which is quite funny I think

Really? Can you link to some of this research?

By the way, MBTI has no scientific testing because it's not scientific. All the categories are arbitrarily defined and there's never any empirical claim made.

Typology just says, "Ok, people who do this, this and that, I'm going to arbitrarily label type X. People who do this, this and that instead, I'm going to arbitrarily label type Y." We don't claim that everyone born at x date/time/place must be an ESFJ; "ESFJ" is just a made up label that we stick on people who behave a certain way. If their behaviors don't line up with the ESFJ profile, we just move them to a different category. You can't move someone to a different astrological category because that would involve changing their birth place/date/time.

You see how there's not actually any proposition to be proven? It's just one possible categorization system; there's no claim to be tested. Nobody thinks it's "scientific fact" that you're an ISFP or whatever type. All it says is, "We could call this kind of person this name, and other kinds that name, based on a system we made up ourselves."

If you wanted to categorize people using names like "Scorpio" or "Aries" based purely on behavioral patterns, placing them in arbitrarily made up categories, that would be equivalent to MBTI. It's not scientific in any way; it's just one possible way of organizing data. Think of it like musical genres--typology is just genres of people. You can't test or prove that Jennifer is INTP any more than you can test or "prove" that Led Zeppelin was a rock band. The term "rock band" is just an arbitrary label we assign to a group for indexing and categorization purposes; it's not scientific and doesn't purport to be. Typology operates exactly the same way.

This is different from astrology because astrology claims a testable causal connection between birth date/time/place and behavioral patterns. You could actually set up a test to determine empirically whether or not any of these connections between birth place/time/date exist; you could not do this with typology because it's just a collection of arbitrary labels that claims no real testable or observable correlation between anything.

Do you see how these are different now?

I don't see the point in going round in circles with you its seriously dull, and just roaring that you think it's all rubbish just makes you seem uneducated. My original point was that astrology isn't about a month or even a day, it's abotu a specific moment in time and space... that is totally uneque.

I'll resist the urge to insult you, since Jennifer is evidently monitoring this thread for rudeness--suffice it to say, I'm not sure you have the grounds to be telling others they sound ignorant here.

So in astrology, your behavioral patterns are completely unique to you because your birth occurred at a totally unique point in space and time? Therefore...no one else in the world will ever have the same astrological profile as you. So how do you actually draw any conclusions about behavioral similarities between people, if no two people ever have the same astrological data?


--Astrology claims to have causal powers. It claims that a time and space positioning of planets has a causal and metaphysical effect on humans. Its not just a self response inventory.

Bingo. Very well said. 20 bucks says Tinkerbell will refuse to acknowledge this, yet again.
 

Lady_X

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cancer sun, aquarius moon and libra rising, dragon. :D
 

simulatedworld

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Ok to share a personal example, I have an astral twin born 2 minutes after me, in Gautamal... I know his girlfriend online because we did a class together.

Ok we had similar types of upbrining (our MBTIs don't match, although I beleive he is a rationalist not the same type).

OK with astrology when the genders are reversed it works slightly differently.

His mum died within weeks of my dad dieing (not to the day but within the same qurter)
His dad died within weeks even closer to my mum (we are talking c.4 weeks)

In the same period I was bugled 3 times and had all sorts of crime happening to and around me, he also had 2 buglaries, and had to change addess as I did in the UK.

Now those are top line, and I've not explored in huge dpeth, but this is a guy I've chatted to once for 5 minutes, I've never met him, and he lives in a very different country to me... but major life events happened close enough for me to see parralles. From your perspective they are not to the day, but from my perspective the astorlogy at the time is similar enough in transit time to be good enough to draw parallels..

As you can imagine there are plenty of ways we differ too, but big stuff seem to align

And you don't think any of this might be due to...I don't know, random chance?

If you can show this sort of similarity over any kind of significant sample of "astral twins", maybe the scientific community will start taking you seriously.
 
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