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Alternatives to Kiersey's classifications

Saslou

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That is unfortunate... kind of like an INTP who sucks at logic.

Actually i disagree with you .. It is not unfortunate at all .. As i am sure you are aware, with age comes wisdom :newwink: We stop sweating the small stuff, it is not important in the grand scheme of things .. So i am not a great host, doesn't mean i don't have other endearing qualities though :D
 

incubustribute

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What ever happened to the route of viewing any grouping system as valid in its proper context? There's no need to invalidate NF/NT/SJ/SP in order to validate EJ/EP/IJ/IP or vice versa. They all attempt to capture a facet of a type. Admittedly, NF/NT/SJ/SP is based more on observable behavior whilst EJ/EP/IJ/IP is based more on a person's psychological functioning with slightly less concern paid to behavior.

I like this, and you're right, it's more theoretical than practical. That's what I was going for. If you have these alternative groupings I think it tends to group people more intuitively on how they function deep down and what drives them to behave the way they do, so that when they come together for discussion (like on the threads) there is a better mesh of alternative preferences to S/N and T/F. They learn from each other without the negative aspects of deep down communication blocks.

These are George Frisbie's "Sociability Temperaments". (I've heard he was critical of Keirsey's groupings) I don't know why those never caught on. They do apparently have some significance. At east one theorist, Brenda Mullins (Personality Page) suggests these are the first things to develop in a child, before the dominant function is even chosen.
And for N types, they do coincide with the Interaction Styles.
ET, IT, EF, IF is another grouping that might have some merit.

I'll have to look into that, I'm not familiar with it, thanks for pointing that out :)

I see the interest in reorganising groupings and this could be done a great many ways. However, you have to find the configuration that explains the similarities and differences the most. Ignoring how people perceive and decide in favour of whether it is introverted or extraverted does not fit well with MBTI. The whole point of this system is HOW people function to explain the output while enneagram groups people according to their output.

I see the point - some people need to know the specifics of which functional preference is being used. I disagree, however, because I think that deep down Se and Ne are more alike than Si and Se or Ni and Ne. The functions are more similar than the modes in which they are experienced. This is why we have such close "scales" between S/N and T/F, or at least some claim to have. They know that they use some form of external perception, they just have a hard time putting their finger on which one. This system allows types to be grouped more according to the underlying principles of why they behave the way they do, not how specifically it is that they do it. The reasons for the behavior are more important distinctions than variances in the behavior itself.

As far as I'm concerned, if you can come up with some better DESCRIPTORS, then you actually have a great theory. :)

I agree. Much to Edgar's and others' dismay on this thread, I really think that is the biggest weakness of my proposition. Again, VagrantFarce offered some great (albeit slightly facetious) synonyms. :)woot: Thanks Vagrant!) Anyone else care to contribute?

kthxbai
 

Tamske

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This seems okay... The main problem I have with Keirsley is that for Sensors the divide is made between J and P, while for Ns it's made along T/F. Is the T/F divide more important to Ns and the J/P divide more important to Ss? If so, why?

Why not:

SJ - the Guardians
SP - the Artists
NJ - the Visionaries
NP - the Dreamers

Or:
ST - the Down-to-earth
SF - the People-minded
NT - the Rationals
NF - the Idealists

Or:
FJ - the Value-minded
FP - the Emotion-minded
TJ - the Efficients
TP - the Theorists

I'm not too happy with some of the names, but I couldn't find better ones in English.

Hm - I'm able to make the divide along any pair. Does that mean every dichotomy is equally important? (Making the distance between an S and an N comparable to the distance between a T and an F, for example)?
 

Eric B

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This is because Keirsey's groups and the Interaction Styles ultimately stem from the old Galenic humor temperaments. (The ones I always talk about). They were measured basically by factors that translate into I/E and people/task, rather than any form of perception. Immanuel Kant introduced a form of perception called "perception of beauty" which tied together opposite temperaments. So Sanguine and Melancholic (opposite in both I/E and people/task) became high beauty perceivers, which was a forerunner of Sensing. Ernst Kretschmer either picked up on this, or by chance developed a model that was like an extension of this, with his Character Styles, which also maintained the same division of Melancholic and what amounts to Sanguine ("hypomanic") on the same side ("cyclothymes"), and the other two as "schizothymes". This appears to be the system Keirsey picked up, and later mapped to MBTI.
So then we inherit this built-in split along the perception functions (S/N) where Sensory temperaments are defined by one set of factors, and iNtuitive temperaments are defined by another.

Both T/F and J/P would fit the old temperament factor of "people/task", but they alternate between the Keirseyan groups and Interaction Styles along S/N: What S defines for one grouping, N defines for the other; and vice versa.

I do see the other (symmmetrical) groupings as having use, but the ancient temperaments seem to be the ones that have stuck as being the core of personality.
 

Wonkavision

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SJ - the Guardians
SP - the Artists
NJ - the Visionaries
NP - the Dreamers

Or:
ST - the Down-to-earth
SF - the People-minded
NT - the Rationals
NF - the Idealists

Or:
FJ - the Value-minded
FP - the Emotion-minded
TJ - the Efficients
TP - the Theorists

These are pretty good. :)

I like how this is developing.
 

Tamske

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@ Eric B: so the division is historical, not inherent to the typology itself. Nothing wrong with that, of course. It does strenghten my idea that division can be made along any line, though. This is a good thing, actually, because that means the dichotomies are well chosen.

@ Wonkavision: thanks!
I've tested those names with some of the types. For example, you could call an ENTP a dreaming rational theorist - which is a pretty accurate description of me. (Actually, I'm more of a rational theoretical dreamer, but okay...)
 

Eric B

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Yeah; historical is a good way to put it. Even though we use those groupings extensively now, they are strictly from Keirsey, and Keirsey's theory is realy different from MBTI. He just found a way to get the four temperaments, via what he calls "role variants" onto the MBTI type code. From what I hear, he's been moving further and further away from type and the letters, focusing exclusively on the named four temperaments.
 

Kalach

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The IxxP, by virtue of its functions, will use some form of Ji (introverted judging) as a dominant (leading) functional role. This could be Ti or Fi.

The IxxJ, by virtue of its functions will use some form of Pi (introverted perception) as a leading role, either Si or Ni.

The ExxP will use some form of Pe (extroverted perception) as its leading role, either Ne or Se.

The ExxJ will use some form of Je (extroverted judging) as its lead role, either Te or Fe.

You've got names for introverts based on how they interact with themselves, and for extroverts based on how they interact with the world. Got a reason for that? Not that many people are going to witness the introvert interacting with himself. They're going to see how he interacts with the world. And you've got all the IJs together, sort of suggesting that Fe and Te don't make much difference in what role a person takes. Whacha tryin to pull? Make all the introverts think they're supposed to be locked up inside themselves? I call Fe plotz.

I'm not a learner, really. I decide stuff. Filling Ni up with junk isn't really worth anything without Je decisions. In my case, Te. Thus, system building. So, at least from what I'm immediately thinking right now, it would seem that calling me an NT makes more sense than calling me an IJ.
 

Tamske

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I'm not a learner, really. I decide stuff.

I would think that's what makes you a J, not an NT. Ni fills up but you don't really have problems with that. Te uses the stuff he needs and will always find the information he needs.

I'm just comparing with myself. I'm NT too. I don't decide stuff, I learn.

Right now, I'm imagining the functions as a sort of persons sitting in my head and governing myself.

Ne is like an enthousiastic know-it-all, always finding out new weird connections, associating like mad, making strange leaps from one topic to a totally unrelated (except for Ne and Ni) topic.

Ti is the one sifting through the information Ne brings, checking internal consistency and deciding which one I should follow through. But he can't work in peace - every few minutes Ne bothers him. Sometimes my Ti just says yes to a stupid idea to get rid of Ne.

Totally different from your functions!

Dominant Ni would also create more connections and ideas than Te can swallow. Only Ni doesn't knock on the door of Te every few minutes. It's the other way around.

I can see Te as a sort of judge. Once in a while, he calls together a meeting of the functions, deciding on the questions at hand. They are questions the outside world poses. He's the active one, he's the one asking Ni for the information he needs.
 

Kalach

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I can see Te as a sort of judge. Once in a while, he calls together a meeting of the functions, deciding on the questions at hand. They are questions the outside world poses. He's the active one, he's the one asking Ni for the information he needs.

Sounds like ENTJ. For INTJ I'd put Ni and Te in similar roles that you had for Ne and Ti. Except, for me at least, Ni doesn't seem to have the wild and crazy in-the-moment feel that Ne doms always talk about for Ne. But if you ever see an INTJ write something before they've properly drafted it, you can see the giant holes left by Ni leaps that Te hasn't papered over yet.

I like being a system builder, dammit! Do ISFJs view themselves as system builders? If so, then lets all be IJs together. What about INFJs and ISTJs? If all of us IJs aren't system builders of some kind, what do I get out of this new nomenclature? if I trade in the system builder identity, what do I get in return? Learner? Too ineffectual. Reminds me of my Se anxieties again.
 

Eric B

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I would think that's what makes you a J, not an NT. Ni fills up but you don't really have problems with that. Te uses the stuff he needs and will always find the information he needs.

I'm just comparing with myself. I'm NT too. I don't decide stuff, I learn.

Right now, I'm imagining the functions as a sort of persons sitting in my head and governing myself.

Ne is like an enthousiastic know-it-all, always finding out new weird connections, associating like mad, making strange leaps from one topic to a totally unrelated (except for Ne and Ni) topic.

Ti is the one sifting through the information Ne brings, checking internal consistency and deciding which one I should follow through. But he can't work in peace - every few minutes Ne bothers him. Sometimes my Ti just says yes to a stupid idea to get rid of Ne.

Totally different from your functions!

Dominant Ni would also create more connections and ideas than Te can swallow. Only Ni doesn't knock on the door of Te every few minutes. It's the other way around.

I can see Te as a sort of judge. Once in a while, he calls together a meeting of the functions, deciding on the questions at hand. They are questions the outside world poses. He's the active one, he's the one asking Ni for the information he needs.

Those are basically the archetypes (which are complexes within the ego) you are describing.
 

incubustribute

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Here's some other names I came up with after reading about various forms of temperament:

IxxP - the Resolute
Internal judging capabilities feed the Ti/Fi user's unwavering sense of right and wrong or true and false. Both functions are concerned primarily with the manifestation of decisive, steadfast values, whether these lie in the rocky terrain of moral judgments or the x/y plane of rational truths.

IxxJ - the Analyst
The ability to store information and infer possibilities is something Ni shares with Si. They both have a need to recall their observations to make inferences on what they should do or what is possible as an outcome to a situation.

ExxJ - the Exhorter
Te and Fe share the need of external validation for their judgments, but they also have in common the ability to move people, whether by thoughtful organization, dogmatic command, or emotional pull.

ExxP - the Improviser
Ne and Se both desperately rely on their experiential perceptions of reality to form any kind of judgment. Most often though, they find themselves way too involved with their experiments to be overly dependent on any kind of restrictive rules or judged boundaries.

I tried to be more thoughtful and considerate of the actual type descriptions when I did these, because the last batch was not without its defects. Hopefully these better epitomize the ideas I'm developing.
 

Eric B

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I just like to use the ancient temperament names, since they are not as susceptible to mistunderstanding as names based on common modern words:

I call them "proto-" because they are the first letters that develop, and most of them will grow into these temperaments, but some won't, depending on the other letters that develop:

IP: proto-Phlegmatic

IJ: proto-Melancholy

EP: proto-Sanguine

EJ: proto-Choleric

SFJ’s will start out as EJ’s or IJ’s, but once the S and F develop, their Interaction Style will become Sanguine or Phlegmatic and not Choleric or Melancholic. STP’s will start out as EP’s or IP’s, but once the S and T develop, their style will become Choleric or Melancholic instead of Sanguine or Phlegmatic. (They both will be Sanguine in the Keirseyan temperament, however).
 

Polaris

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I call them "proto-" because they are the first letters that develop, and most of them will grow into these temperaments, but some won't, depending on the other letters that develop:
This may be slightly off-topic, but could you expand on this a bit? I'd be particularly interested to hear how someone going from Mel-chol to Phleg-mel would fit into this dynamic and explain their Type.
 

Eric B

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Well, Mel-Chol (usually spelled "Mel Chlor") would be INTJ, and Phleg-Mel would be ISFJ. (No one would go from one type to the other). They both are IJ's, and thus start out as "proto-Melancholy", and the INTJ will stay Melancholy (Chart the Course), but when the ISFJ's two middle letters develop, it will be Behind the Scenes, which is Phlegmatic. However, it too will still be part Melancholy by virtue of the SJ.
 

Polaris

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Well, Mel-Chol (usually spelled "Mel Chlor") would be INTJ, and Phleg-Mel would be ISFJ. (No one would go from one type to the other). They both are IJ's, and thus start out as "proto-Melancholy", and the INTJ will stay Melancholy (Chart the Course), but when the ISFJ's two middle letters develop, it will be Behind the Scenes, which is Phlegmatic. However, it too will still be part Melancholy by virtue of the SJ.
So what you're saying is that there's a perfect correspondence between the MBTI and the four humours. This is strange to me, because I'm quite certain I wasn't an INTJ in high school (the idea is laughable) and I'm even more certain I'm not an ISFJ right now. On the other hand, I may in fact be a Mel-phleg--I'm very close on the two--and this would be more consistent with someone who started out as a Mel-chlor, wouldn't it?
 

Eric B

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Wait, what are you saying? that you started out as a Mel-Chlor, and arew now a Mel-Phleg. Temperament is believed to be inborn, but just like type or any system, taking tests at different times, or even different tests can yield different results. If you're really INFP, then you're likely pure Phlegmatic, and Melancholy might simply be the next strongest temperament. A lot of people can have a three way blend of temperaments, so you might also be Phlegmatic-Phlegmatic-Melancholy, with only the first two corresponding to your type. But INFJ would be Mel-Phleg, and isn't that one of the other types you said might work for you? It's funny that as per our previous discussion, INTJ is another one that was mentioned, and that would fit Mel-Chlor.

So the ambiguity you face with humor temperament combination basically parallels the same ambiguity you are having with type. I didn't say "perfect" correspondence, but from what I have seen so far (both conceptually, by comparison to the Keirsey-Berens temperament/Interaction Styles model; and empirically by comparing people's type to their humor test results), it seems pretty good.
 

Polaris

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Eric B said:
I didn't say "perfect" correspondence, but from what I have seen so far (both conceptually, by comparison to the Keirsey-Berens temperament/Interaction Styles model; and empirically by comparing people's type to their humor test results), it seems pretty good.
I do remember that all of the people in my class who scored as Phlegmatic were IN_P and ISFJ, so I'm prepared to believe that there's a good correspondence.
 

Kalach

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Here's some other names I came up with after reading about various forms of temperament:

IxxP - the Resolute
Internal judging capabilities feed the Ti/Fi user's unwavering sense of right and wrong or true and false. Both functions are concerned primarily with the manifestation of decisive, steadfast values, whether these lie in the rocky terrain of moral judgments or the x/y plane of rational truths.

Unwavering?

IxxJ - the Analyst
The ability to store information and infer possibilities is something Ni shares with Si. They both have a need to recall their observations to make inferences on what they should do or what is possible as an outcome to a situation.

They do? Sounds like IP.

(I don't relate to recalling observations. Swimming in Ni does not feel like recalling the past. Ni actually tends to be used as if current understanding can always be escaped.)

ExxJ - the Exhorter
Te and Fe share the need of external validation for their judgments, but they also have in common the ability to move people, whether by thoughtful organization, dogmatic command, or emotional pull.

So not true. Te moves people? In a literal physical sense perhaps. Technically, if Te doms are exhorting, it would be them yelling at machines and processes.

ExxP - the Improviser
Ne and Se both desperately rely on their experiential perceptions of reality to form any kind of judgment. Most often though, they find themselves way too involved with their experiments to be overly dependent on any kind of restrictive rules or judged boundaries.

Dunno what that means, but it could well be true.
 

Tamske

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I can see Te as a sort of judge. Once in a while, he calls together a meeting of the functions, deciding on the questions at hand. They are questions the outside world poses. He's the active one, he's the one asking Ni for the information he needs.

Sounds like ENTJ.

Of course. Both E- and INTJ have the same first two functions. To me the difference seems like:
For an INTJ, when Te calls Ni for information, the information is already there. Ni has more information than Te will ever need.
For an ENTJ, Te is even more active and calls for more information poor Ni can provide. So Te will search elsewhere - in the outside world, for example.
 
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